Fender and Gibson, the cost is it worth it...Discuss amongst the group.

One of the problems with the US brands is that you seem to be paying far more in Australia for them than we do in the UK (which is still far more than you'd pay in the US). Just trying to find an example and there's an American Vintage '52 Maple Tele that is selling in a Melbourne shop for $3439, that is £1515 in Andertons, UK which equates to $2443. So that's basically $1000 (or £620) more expensive than in the UK. As shipping is so cheap these days, most of that difference must be in import duties. I certainly wouldn't want to buy one for that price, nor for the extra money that you'd have to pay to get a new Gibson! The recent drop in the value of the £ is hitting US guitar prices, so a few months ago we would have been paying around 10% less.

I do have a selection of Gibsons and Fenders. My most expensive one (purchase price-wise) is a Custom Shop NOS Dave Gilmour Strat, which is a thing of beauty to play (and as my ex-Fender demonstrator mate said - it sounds f***ing gorgeous). That was a 50th birthday present from my wife (yes, I really am that lucky!) and cost £2600 at that time (around $4200 at current exchange rates). It has the most wonderful neck on it; even though it's a 7.25" radius, the action is as low as any of my Gibsons. Whilst it may never recover its purchase price if sold, it will still sell for a reasonable percentage of that. My '98 Jap fotoflame Strat, bought used for about £280 in 2002 and since fitted with Kinmans, sounds very similar, but still doesn't feel as nice or as inspiring to play. Other, older, musician friends who've spent a lot of time in the US (including one who actually knew Dave Gilmour really well in the late '60s and early '70s, was in Joker's Wild and depped for Syd a few times at the start of Pink Floyd) and had bought and sold around 500 guitars in their time, said it was the best Strat they'd ever played. And far better than any other Custom Shop Strat they'd tried. So maybe I just struck lucky with it, but I'd say that guitar was worth what (my wife) paid for it.

All of my other US guitars have been 2nd hand - either from shops or more recently eBay. And certainly at 2nd hand UK prices, I'd say they are worth it. The name does generally help keep the used prices decent (though I'm still after a good bargain). And I don't expect the prices of used good brand guitars to drop much.

I bought an almost new and unmarked all Warmoth parts Tele on eBay for £380. Pricing up the parts, including the case, without any possible assembly costs, I came to £1400 ($612 vs $2260). It's very unlikely that a £1400 Fender would have sold for much less than £1000, even thought the parts would have been better made, with nicer woods on the Warmoth than on the Fender. Had it had 'Fender' on the headstock (actually it did say 'Fender' on the headstock) and had been made by them, I wouldn't have bothered bidding (I do a lot of 'speculative' bidding on the off-chance, and have got myself some great bargains).

So, move away from Australia and the cost of the big-name US guitars drops considerably, making them seem much better value. In my opinion Fender currently seem to have a much more consistent quality level than Gibson have, but then I'd never buy a new guitar I hadn't played, and have walked away from lots from both makes. And I've never got on with PRS guitars. Gibson's management seem to have lost the plot completely these days, though it and their QA, has never been particularly great ever since the '50s IMO.

I know people who visited the Gibson factory in the '80s and the management were openly snorting coke at their desks and in the late '80s and early '90s my ex-guitar shop owning mate often sent all his new delivery of Gibsons back - some hadn't even had the electrics fitted whilst a lot needed their necks reset to be made playable.

My Les Paul (Jimmy Page model) is from 1995 at a time when Gibson were generally making them well (even though it came with nasty ceramic pickups that got swapped out to some Bareknuckle Mules) but I'm not really tempted by much in the current range until you start to get into the custom shop models, and I wouldn't pay those sorts of prices. Needless to say, their 2015 'improvements' were a disaster.

I've got a Vintage Lemon Drop (Peter Green LP style copy) that plays as well as, and sounds very similar to, my Gibson LP, but it's certainly not as well made with some terrible faux-ageing. But for £240 new (a few years ago) it is a superb guitar. But I wouldn't want to get rid of my real Gibson.

There are some good custom guitar makers in the UK, and depending on type and specification you'd be looking at £2000-£5000 ($3200-$8000) for a full custom build, (less for some makers that that use bought-in necks) so a bit more in the UK than a standard US LP or Strat, but you're in PRS territory. On the plus side you get a unique instrument, on the minus side you don't really know exactly how it's going to turn out until it's finished and in your hands, despite how much you've chatted with the maker about it. Despite your choice of exotic tonewoods, it may still sound a bit 'meh' or not feel comfortable in your hands. And very few custom maker's guitars sell used for anything like the original cost, so it's unlikely to be of any investment value.

The only UK custom electric guitar maker I know of who's guitars have gone up in value is the late Tony Zematis, made famous by their use with a lot of UK big-name bands. These days, there aren't as many big UK bands around, and those that generally use standard US or US custom maker instruments.

But there are some very good budget level guitars out there. As has been said by others, starter guitars are so much better than they used to be. There are some cracking Squiers that are almost as good as real Fenders (and with a few upgrades, often better). I've never been a fan of the Epiphone LPs (haven't played that many but all of them felt nothing like a LP). but Tokai do some very good copies. In the UK the Vintage brand do some well made, low-cost copies as well.

And I've concentrated on the US guitars. There are some great Ibanez guitars out there, for not too much money. Their bottom of the range guitars are adequate, if not that inspiring, but spending a bit more, once the hardware and pickups become decent, there are some really good guitars to be had in the £300-£400 region. Yes, their Japanese made models are better made, but they won't necessarily play any better. Their hardware might last a bit longer as well, but you are paying a lot of extra money for that.

I'm rambling now, so shall stop.

(I haven't converted every £ value into $Aus but at the moment it's roughly $1 = £0.62, or £1 = $1.61)

In Aus we pay not only import duty but also more in freight to get stuff here from the northern hemisphere, then because of the sheer size of the country it costs a lot to get stuff from the distributor to the actual store. Then because we have such a small population Aus stores don't have the buying power of US and European stores. Andertons probably sell more guitars than all the shops in Aus combined! Small price to pay for living in the best place in the world :D

One of the best, certainly.

I have since been looking at import duty and taxes, and unless I'm reading the info wrong, it shouldn't cost more than 20% max to bring something under $10k directly into Australia. Our shop prices include 20% VAT, so it seems to me that if you imported direct from the UK or even the US, you would avoid paying that VAT (or US sales tax) and paying a similar amount (or less) to our VAT when importing it (plus something like a $90 processing fee). So any real extra outlay would seem to be be the cost of transportation and risking damage either by baggage handling morons if sent by air, or by climate on a cargo ship.

under 1 k ( including freight costs) you don't pay any duties but of course not too many businesses bring in 1 guitar. I've run an import business up till last month and they can randomly hit you with quarantine fees if there is timber or animal by products ( like bone ) and 1/2 the time they don't even open the box, just charge you the fee, then the freight company will have its duty collection fee. I actually had one custom katana for a customer cost me more in freight and added fees than the actual item cost! (quarantine wanted to know what species of ray the ray skin on the handle was from....try asking that of someone that speaks no English! They wanted to charge me 2k for a DNA test to be sure it wasn't an endangered species! Which would have also damaged the sword with them trying to get a sample off. Someone was looking for brownie points because they backed off real fast when i went to the Minister)Add to that the damages, theft, fines for not wording a declaration correctly or a wholesaler throwing in few bonus items and you getting a fine for not declaring everything in the shipment ...... Yea, I have given up dealing with them.

The buying power is a MASSIVE difference too. Retailers in the US were selling items cheaper than I could buy through a distributor in the US because the big stores have buying power to buy 200 of an item, I was buying 5 and couldn't deal with the manufacturers. More people live in LA than live in Australia

Fair enough. Our Customs and Excise people are far less fussy and I've never had a problem getting things shipped from the US (although admittedly only one complete guitar). They sure make you pay for your little bit of heaven on earth!

Well this whole price disparity only works depending on how old you are.

Back in the 70''s ..or Pre 1984 when the Aus $$ was floated.

The Average value of the US Dollar back the was US $0.65 = $ AUS 1.00

To buy a New Gibson or even a old one, their value was WAY LOWER prior to 1984.

Guitars/ Hi Fi & LP records were cheap back then....I know, I stocked up on all of them....only problem was....NEW Gibsons were crap at that time, Standard models seemed to get through QC OK, but special model, forget it.

The Fretting was horrible, looked like nobody cared, very rough, scratches etc
Inlay was popping out....it really was that bad....I could go on, but little point.

You could pick up a used 60's LP standard for under AUS $400 back then...Pre L Strats were going for less [ :eek: ].... I use to buy them off impoverished musos so they could pay the rent, [ then let them buy them back] as I did...problem was, I've never liked the weight of a Les Paul, so have pretty much sold them on as soon as getting them.... well apart from one Custom Black [Bank Vault - don't ask]

The whole vintage thing is a myth.
I've played a LOT of these so called "Magic Year" Strat's / Teles / LP's... Sorry I'm calling Bull Shit.

You need to know the history behind the whole "Which Year is better " crap.

It all started around 1990 when at the Dallas Guitar Show [ where all the guitar dealers show their stock]
One dealer thought it would be a great display to one of each Strat & Tele, they had in stock, from each YEAR that Fender made them.
They had managed to get one from each, and had lined them up in a row.
The rest is history.
A Myth is born

Good comments Tweaky and reinforces why both big US manufacturers went so hard after Ibanez who was doing better copies than the originals during lawsuit era. I fondly remember the Ibanez Silver Series models and their mid 70's Les Pauls were extremely good value. Only weakness was the PUP's being a bit weaker than OEM's but nothing a few bucks spent with Dimarzio couldn't fix at the time.

I don't doubt it Tweaky. I had a far higher disposable income in the '80s than I do now - not a huge income but almost no outgoings, company car and petrol paid for etc, but I never bought a LP at the time because they were so poor. I went for a Yamaha SG3000 instead. I've never played an old Fender or Gibson electric (I've got a '65 Gibson Country Western acoustic which is OK but nothing special and the internal finishing is very poor) but I know from others that have, that their quality is variable. Some are fantastic, some are OK and others are far worse than a Squier of Epiphone equivalent.

In terms of investment guitars, anything old and produced in small quantities (compared to today) is going to be worth more than a much better modern guitar and hold or increase its value better, but for overall playability and sound, I always go by each instrument's own qualities, whether new or old.

Structurally, the Japan made Guitars where amazing, from around 1972-85
Pickups varied, but seldom bad...depends on what you deem bad ....Ibanez ICEMAN ...OUCH! .. KISS FAN'S LOVE IT.

Attachment 14967
I Hate it....Horrible

BUT .... strangely, if original 70's model, worth a small forture.

Too weird...people are spending too much time staring at their phones

If you Own one ... Sell it

The only issues with Ibanez guitars - at least in the late '70s, was their application of thick Polyester finishes. My first real guitar (after a plywood Columbus LP copy) was a black Ibanez Studio series ST55. Made well, but that Polyester finish was at least 2mm thick (and getting on for 3mm in places). The original V2 pickups were high-powered ceramic devices with no subtlety, so I swapped them out for some more elegant Might Mite humbuckers and added coil taps. But I still felt that the thick finish was dampening the body and it wasn't resonating. After a while it got consigned to storage and much later I planned to re-finish it, maybe add a maple veneer and re-shape the headstock. But I simply couldn't get the Poly off, it was far too tough/thick. Paint stripper wouldn't touch it and even a belt sander made little impression. So I gave up and threw the body away.