Some saddles can cause a buzz - but the barrel saddles shouldn't as they have a string forcing the saddle down at each screw in post.
I have only had tuners vibrate when the nut has come loose!
Printable View
Some saddles can cause a buzz - but the barrel saddles shouldn't as they have a string forcing the saddle down at each screw in post.
I have only had tuners vibrate when the nut has come loose!
I noticed that the tuners were vibrating when they were not strung. took a while to figure out where the "fuzzy" sound was coming from. But if the tuner is not strung, the "post" can move a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
My youngest daughter thinks that most of the buzz comes from the bridge and a fainter "tinnier" buzz from the first fret area....
If:
capo'd at the first and fretted on the 17th frets - I'm going to guesstimate that the bottom of the string is about 0.5 mm.
Capo'd at the first fret - I'd say the gap at the 12th is about 2.5 mm for the low E
To illustrate that string a bit further, if Capo'd at the first fret then at the 21st fret the gap between the fret and the bottom of the E string is 3 mm.
.......and to reduce the buzz (to only when you really try to get it) I'd have to raise the "E" and "A" saddle a bit more.
I think TD's right about the saddle. But do check all the screws holding the bridge down. Anything that is not tightened down will rattle. I once thought that my bass had a rattle in the low E...which turned out to the the snare on my son's drum kit that was rattling.
Couple of things to keep in mind: Always do your buzz tests with ALL strings at at tension and in tune.
Can tuners buzz? Absolutely! I was having a terrible time getting the buzz out of my acoustic, until Simon Barden on this forum recommended that I tighten the tuner nuts. Voila! (as my Quebecois grandmother used to say). Almost all of the buzz went away. Under tension the geared part should be quiet and the post should not move. If the post will wiggle under tension that could be a problem. I'd recommend tightening anything that can be tightened. I use a "three finger" rule. Tighten everything until it stops using my thumb and two fingers on the screwdriver. EVERYTHING on the tuner: knob, bottom screws, and top nut.
screw down everything that can be screwed down everywhere on the guitar including the pickguard and pickups if they are on.
Eyeball the neck from the heel looking up the fretboard to see if there is a twist. If not...
Redo the fret leveling with a longer stick. I don't think this is the issue, but it's worth a try.
Use a fresh set of strings. They don't have to be good, just "intact".
Redo the first three steps in TRAIN:
Tune
Relief (get it flat then reset the truss rod--with capo on fret 1)
Action (set the action at the bridge--with capo on fret 1)
If you still have a buzz at that point we may need to get out the auto mechanic's stethoscope to figure out where it's coming from!
Good thinking choosing the youngest daughter. No doubt the one with the best hearing ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
The faint, thin buzz may be from the capo. If you can tighten it down a bit...
I may have found it....... utilising the eyesight of someone over 45 years younger than me this time .......
I had a thought that maybe the neck socket or the neck heel is not on "dead flat". As it turns out, my youngest looked at the measurements for me, and she thinks the bottom of the fretboard is a tiniest bit higher from the body at the 22nd fret than it is at the 18th/17th fret.
I imagine that this would make enough of a difference over the length of the neck.... at least I'd think it's worth having a look at
Yes, that's possible. The neck bows under tension, and it's not uncommon for the string to be a little closer at the 22nd than the 17th. I checked one of mine, and if I fret at the 17th and 21st there is a teeny bit fo daylight under the string. Less than my thinnest feeler gauge...maybe just enough for a thin piece of paper.
If it is causing the buzz, the tape on the 12th or 9th, and then doing a bit more leveling may help
Sent from my CPH2655 using Tapatalk
No joy, I'm afraid.
Sorted that out and any difference is very minimal.
Well - I'll make a metal notched straight edge and check the fretboard.
See if frets are all level Then see if the frets are a little higher on the Low E side.
If that's all as it should be... then as you suggest it's taping at the 12 or 9th fret and lightly go over the 22 to 11 frets.....
Well - I've made a longer fret-filing tool that is a bit over the fretboard length.
My existing file I'm also still using.
So - made a notched straight edge out of a steep ruler.
got the neck flat - and noticed that the fretboard was possibly not dead flat...
So I put the neck in a very slight back bow (as per the video)
Then levelled the whole fret board with the longer levelling tool (used 240G sandpaper) frets one and two were barely "touched".
I then put tape on 9th fret and used the shorter tool (same grit) over the frets 10 to 22, making sure that none or very little was taken from frets 10, 11 or 12.
tidied each fret up with 400 grit sandpaper
Took off the shoulders of each fret with 600 grit.
Restrung, tuned up and adjusted the neck to a slightly forward bow and tuned up again....
capo'd at the first fret, the Low E string is about 2 mm higher than the 12th fret.
Capo'd at the first fret and fretted on the 17th - the Low E string is about .5 mm above the 7th or 8th fret
Capo's at teh frst fret - the string is about XX mm higher than the 22nd fret.
Normal "playing" - no buzz
If I use my thumb on the low e with a "bit of force" - buzz.
Buzz is a tiny bit "easier" to get when fretted on the first fret. Fretted at the second and no buzz - so I wonder if the second fret needs to be fractionally lower than the first?
fretting all the way down the neck and a very slight buzz happens approaching the 17th fret.
There is some improvement (I think the initial one was a bad levelling effort!) but there is a very slight buzz on occasion.
So if I repeat the process (this time taking a tiny bit off the second fret and a bit off frets 16 to 22) I'm hoping fr no buzz.....
Glad that you got most of it out! That's real progress given where you started! It's amazing how much of an improvement fret leveling makes, I have found. I have only had one neck that didn't need at least some leveling. The one that didn't was a Warmoth radiused neck. I'd expect that from a neck that sells for more than any kit I have bought ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Getting rid of the buzz with normal playing is pretty good. Eventually you will hit the point of diminishing returns trying to get every bit of buzz out of the low E when you are playing hard. You may want to see if you can hear it when amplified before doing too much more.
If you do decide that you want to try to get that last bit out, you might use one of these on the 2nd fret:
Attachment 45706
These are sometimes marketed as "fret dressing sticks" or "fret dressing tools" in places that sell to guitar people. The exact same item is often sold cheaper at wood working sites where it is called a "sanding detailer stick."
Something nice about these is that you can use them to lower a fret just under the string that is buzzing without taking more metal off the whole fret. I have used mine on the low end of the fretboard when the fretboard is pretty much level, but I have a small, persistent buzz, usually one the 2nd or 3rd fret, and just one one or two strings.
If you decide to go after 16-22. Tape off the frets from 1-11. Put two pieces of blue painters tape on the 12th fret. Then level the frets from 13-22. The painters tape will raise the height of the 12th fret just enough to take off just a bit of the frets below that. You could concentrate just on the bass side of the neck if you want, or the whole neck. If you want Either way that should eliminate your problem at the treble end of the neck.
I just did this with a Tele neck, although I raised the 9th fret rather than the 12th for a slightly more gradual slope. I have done it both ways and don't think it makes much difference, since you only have a little buzz you could do it either way.
Hope this helps. It always seems to me that the last 10% involves 90% more effort ;-)
Yes - that's another thing I was thinking - to gently work on a fret that I suspect is not behaving... (but i've not seen it mentioned before, so I though there'd be some problem I hadn't considered or knew about)Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
As mentioned - it seems that the second and (possibly) the 17th fret are the cause....
So - if it is something that is "done" (rather than my own uninformed opinion) that an individual fret can be worked I'll give that a try. I've looked up sanding sticks and there seems to be a type that resembles a "q-tip" (looks like a bamboo skewer with a flat top on an agle with a small piece of sandpaper.... It'd be simple to make a similar tool out of a "popsicle stick" or a fatter skewer and a small piece of sandpaper. obviously It'd be run down the length of the individual fret (underneath the buzzing string).
I do notice that the strings seem further away from the fretboard than they are on my Telecaster - which it is hard not to see as a possible cause - although you have advised that's normal for a Gibson (or a 24 3/4" scale length) neck.
To correct my post above...
capo'd at the first fret, the bottom of the Low E string is about 2 mm higher than the 12th fret.
Capo'd at the first fret and fretted on the 17th - the bottom of the Low E string is about .5 mm above the 7th or 8th fret
Capo's at the first fret - the bottom of the of the low E string is about 2.5 mm higher than the 22nd fret.
I am also still wondering if the neck was settled in another 1mm lower - then the angle would be just that little less near the higher frets (say 16 to 22)......
But yes - it's the very last bits that are the hardest.
Thanks again for all your help.
It's done, and your approach should work. It's not a substitute for fret leveling, but it can be helpful when you have a single fret--or just a part of a fret, that is a little high. I should also say that I can usually identify the fret or the part of the fret that is a problem with the fret rocker. I found this video helpful for using the fret rocker...Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5swQMVDYaiQ
You can use those, or a small file. I like the stick because the belt makes it easy to "refresh" the sanding surface. Also sand-paper is slower than a file which reduces my chances of getting it too low. Also the sticks are cheap. Usually a criterion for me liking a tool ;-)Quote:
...I've looked up sanding sticks and there seems to be a type that resembles a "q-tip" (looks like a bamboo skewer with a flat top on an agle with a small piece of sandpaper.... It'd be simple to make a similar tool out of a "popsicle stick" or a fatter skewer and a small piece of sandpaper. obviously It'd be run down the length of the individual fret (underneath the buzzing string).
Lower string tension could be a reason for the strings to need to be a bit higher "all things being equal" as the economists say. But the strings being higher should reduce buzz, not cause it. So if it's still buzzing there may be something else.Quote:
I do notice that the strings seem further away from the fretboard than they are on my Telecaster - which it is hard not to see as a possible cause - although you have advised that's normal for a Gibson (or a 24 3/4" scale length) neck
Maybe I am confused... It seems like it would be easier to just raise the saddle by 1mm to produce the same effect? There is an oldschool method of setting the action where you increase the height at the saddle to where you don't hear a buzz and then lower it until you do. Then raise it back up just to the point of no buzz.*Quote:
I am also still wondering if the neck was settled in another 1mm lower - then the angle would be just that little less near the higher frets (say 16 to 22)......
*You want to make sure that your nut height is OK. Do this by capo'ing at the 3rd fret and making sure you can slide a piece of paper between the first fret and the string.
Maybe I am confused... It seems like it would be easier to just raise the saddle by 1mm to produce the same effect? There is an oldschool method of setting the action where you increase the height at the saddle to where you don't hear a buzz and then lower it until you do. Then raise it back up just to the point of no buzz.*
*You want to make sure that your nut height is OK. Do this by capo'ing at the 3rd fret and making sure you can slide a piece of paper between the first fret and the string.
If I do that then the strings are very high off the fretboard.
The thought is that if the neck was in a 18mm socket, then the angle would mean the string is just a bit higher off the end of the fretboard, but not correspondingly higher off most of the fretboard (given that the nut is also lowered).
Capo'd at the 3rd fret - there's room for a thick piece of paper and a credit card.
I've done the "spot" levelling... it's a little bit better again.
I'm thinking that perhaps I was too worried about taking off too much from the higher frets (after taping at the 9th or 12th fret).
I know that feeling! Those very high frets look like they are getting very flat, before you see anything come off the 13th or 10th (depending on what you tape). Looking at it from the side occasionally, so that you can see there is still plenty of fret there helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Once you have the frets levelled, and the guitar strung, you can try the first three steps in set up (Tune, Relief, Action at the bridge) to see if it still buzzes. You probably won't need to adjust the relief, but I'd still check it.
If you don't get buzz when you get the action set at the bridge, great. If you still have buzz, I would be curious as to how high you need to get the saddle to stop having buzz.
Sent from my CPH2655 using Tapatalk
I wonder about the tuners as well..... how "snug" (a tight fit) are they supposed to be?
it they are to fit in snug to the point where they cannot "wriggle" - that might be the problem - because they are not that snug....
I've just placed the Grovers into the second neck... and there was a bit of wriggle room (I can't remember if it was the same for the first neck, which have the "standard" tuners in)- so if they are supposed to be snug the holes in the headstock are up to 1/5 millimetre or so too big.
If you don't think the tuners are snug enough you can wrap the shaft (B in the pic) with aluminum or copper tape (what you'd use for shielding). It's stiff and won't flex, so should work pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Attachment 45715
That said, I have some that are not that snug and don't rattle at all. When in tune, the string pulls the tuner snug against the wall of the hole, so it should not cause a rattle. The part of the tuner that does often rattle is the nut (A in the pic). I spent a couple of weeks looking for a rattle in my acoustic, only to discover that I just needed to tighten down the nut on the tuners.
Thanks,Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
it's good to at least eliminate something as a "possible cause".
I'll use the shielding tape in the second build - just to be sure though.
Well I did it "differently".Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
As the first guitar was all stringed up etc... I did the fretwork levelling on the newer guitar neck. This time I tried not to worry about the higher frets "disappearing from over-sanding"
I then put it on the second body (which has very slightly deeper neck socket).
I've adjusted the saddles and now:
capo'd at the first and fretted on the 15th frets - I'm going to say that the bottom of the E string is less than 0.5 mm higher than the 7th fret (a business card cannot fit in the gap)
Capo'd at he first fret - I'd say the gap at the 12th is about 2 mm (possibly 1.9?) for the low E.
There is a slight, late buzz on the E string, but i have to try to get it.
I am about to head into class (TD's not the only teacher here), and will read this more carefully later...but just looking at the last line, I am reminded of the guy who goes to the doctor because his arm hurts. The doctor asks him if it hurts all the time. He says, "no, it just hurts when I go like this" and he puts his hand up as high as it will go. The doctor says "Then don't do that."Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Just looked at the measurements... I do them in SAE measurements so I had to convert them to mm... Yours look pretty good. If the action feels good to you, I'd be tempted to declare victory. With the exception of guitars set up exclusively for slide, I think about any E string can be made to buzz if you hit it hard enough.
SAE - is that what you call "imperial" (feet and inches)? What does it stand for (i'm guessing "Standard American ....something".Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
Yes I was very happy to get this working - of course, in my haste, the neck is on crooked (it's about 1 mm off!) the screws must have "gone in " on bad angles (just plain atrocious workmanship!)
I'll have to take it off, put dowels in and then try again.
But at least I know that kind of fret levelling will solve the problem.
the shieding tape wrapped around the tuners did help too.
SAE is Standard American English and it is a complete and utter stupid system. Started my apprenticeship in Imperial and became a tradesman in Metric. Can use both but metric is much easier as everything in is base 10. 12 inches to the foot, 3 feet to the yard, 22 yards to the chain....completely stupid. The excuse was cost which Australia went through in the 80's and we are now over 40 years and it's still the same excuse.
We don't use the term "Imperial" in the US for two reasons. There's the obvious reason that we left the Empire somewhat acrimoniously. The other is that some of our measurements are different than their conjugate Imperial measurements. I grew up on the Canadian boarder, so the one that always used to confuse me was the gallon. It was 4.6l in British Columbia, and 3.8l in Washington. So you had to convert dollars AND gallons to figure out gas prices.
I agree that SAE is a stupid, confusing system. To make the point it would actually make more sense if SAE did stand for "Standard American English." It actually stands for "Society of Automotive Engineers" from back in the early part of the 20th century when it developed standards for the US auto industry. SAE is now an international organization, and has used primarily metric units (SI) since the 1960s like everyone else. We still use the term SAE even though the measuring units are now more properly called United States Customary Units.
We were also told back when the US "rejected" the metric system in the 1970s that it was to save cost. Specifically the cost of retooling American car factories. It meant that every one who wanted to work on cars had to get two sets of tools, SAE and Metric. So, it certainly did not save *me* any money.
Dumbest of all is that we hang on to this stupid system although we have *not* actually rejected the metric system. All scientific measurements are metric. My metric tools sometime fit the nuts on my Dodge better than my SAE tools...which might be because it was made in Canada.
All that said, Fender, Gibson and a lot of YT continue to use inch-based measures...and as a result I use an analog ruler to do setup measures down to 64ths of an inch...which results in the need to do my conversions to mm with a calculator, hence my delay.
Glad that the shielding tape worked! It took me an embarrassing amount of time to realize how much easier that would be than dowelling and re-drilling.
I'm not sure if 1mm off is that bad! If the neck is slightly crooked, you may be able move it a bit by loosening the screws and applying a force to the neck/body in the needed direction and then retighten the screws. I would try this before redowelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
The first "dot" is noticeably 1 mm "out" to the right and the 9th "dot" is noticeably 1 mm out to the left......Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
It also means that the "e" strings are both a bit too close to the edge of the fretboard ....
I've tried the Re-screw" option and did get it a bit better - but that was to the current situation (it was worse before!)
As they say in the classics.... if you screw something up - screw it up properly!
I seem to be "good" on the "classics".....
It's annoying - the first try (guitar) has the neck on just about perfectly! I don't think I have an option other than to dowell and re-drill. The best case scenario might be that I can identify one screw that pulls rthe rest out and only have to fix that one....
I see - quite a mess.... What is "YT"?Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
I thought the car industries had been pretty much standardised along manufacturing conglomerate lines - well, not related to guitars but anything learned is a good thing.
The shilding tape doesn't ensure a "perfect fit" but it does stop the movement substantially (before the screw is put in).
YT=Youtube.
Perfect fit isn't necessary with the tuners that use a nut (as opposed to push-in ferules), IMHO ;-)
Well this build (there are now two unfinished guitars - which I view as the "one build" given that one "progresses" to the other in lessons learned) has reached another milestone... the second iteration is now "working" acoustically.
Attachment 45731
[the blue represents where the pickup will be]
It turns out the bridge is 1mm out of line. It's hard to see in the photo but a move 1 mm "up" makes it "perfect". I'll fix that next week.
Attachment 45732
I've put "rev. willy's 7s" on it and these take a bit of getting used to (they are SO "slinky") but it plays really well. The only issue is the aforementioned slight misalignment - which affects the partial muting I do with my thumb.
Still not entirely happy with the upper bout.... but it so nearly "fits" when i try to play (I want to get to the stage where,when seated, my fretting hand does not need to hold the neck in place - this is almost there).
Comfort when you play it is so important. I made a P-bass with a Pit Bull custom Jazz bass width neck and a paulownia body. I am very reluctant to change anything on it because when I play it, it's just "viceless." The body is comfortable. The neck feels great. The action is just right, controls are simple and easy. It almost feels like it disappears when I play it. So I am VERY reluctant to change anything on it. It may not be my most interesting looking creation, but it gets played more than any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Over time, I am guessing that you'll care less about the upper bout (which looks pretty good to me, BTW) as long as you just like the feel of it when you play.
I understand completely. Comfort matters and makes it 'payabie" (I just need to be able to play!).Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
I think it's nearly "tailored to me" - I'll keep assessing it but I think the top "curve" could be a adjusted with the top bout a little wider (towards the middle of the guitar.) That means it'll "sit" in position and more or less hold itself in place. I've done a lot of work with the contouring over the first two bodies and I think this'd be the last adjustment to that end.
I might tape something a few mm thick on to see it it makes the difference I think it will.
Took a plunge and sandpapered the back of the nut down - I had done this previously with the plastic nut (on the first build) so I took that as a guide.
Possibly still a tad high - but only in comparison to my Telecaster.
Immediate change in tone....
Capo'd at the first fret, the string bottom is about 2mm above the 12th fret. Tiny bit of fretbuzz if i really try to get it - or hit the strings very aggressively.
So I'kll see hwo that goes with time.
For now - I'll just see about moving the bridge 1/2 to 1 mm "to the left" so that it lines up perfectly with the neck..
Once that's done I'll need to decide on teh pickup, volume control and a switch for tone caps......
Meanwhile I'm experimenting with Whittles hard wax oils and stains - I think a translucentish White (the Douglas Fir is rather "stripy, so I'll have to see
I suspect the Pittbill neck "rosewood fretboards" are dyed - does anyone know if it's possible to remove this - I had a though of staining the neck including the fretboard "Jarrah" to make a contrax=st with the whitish body.
The rosewood is not dyed. I cut through a PB neck (to get the truss rod) and the fretboard was a solid dark colour all the way through. Not sure if it is true rosewood though! You could definitely stain the maple wood of the neck a jarrah colour to get contrast.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
I thought it was dyed as when I oil the fretboards I noticed a dark colour coming off them... must just be a wood with a lot of tannins.
I think Jarrah probably doesn't look good against the fretboard...unless the fretboard was also dyed darker....
Well - a setback.
The bridge needed to be centred properly (a lesson learned - in a wood as "stripy" as Douglas fir - the "seam where the wood was joined is rather deceiving) but the angle of the neck socket was also ever so slightly un-aligned.
Sorted out now using a scraper, chisel and sandpaper, for a snug fit, the socket will need a shim (if ine thin enough can be found) or putty.
I think the problem is in determining the centreline of the neck heel - which is:
a) difficult - in the absence of a 90 degree angle....
b) done over such a short distance - so any "mistake" is exacerbated along the length of the neck.....
I think the idea is to determine the centreline of the neck differently - and use a much longer application (of the centreline).
I'm thinking of:
1) make sure the "dots' are in the middle of the neck.
2) use the dots to establish a centreline - and mark this on the end of the heel and the end of the headstock using a technologically advanced centring tool (a length of wool or fishing line)
3) flip the neck over and use a metre rule to create a centreline of the heel - and line that up with a centreline on a piece of board about twice the length of the body.
4) Clamp and then check the centreline from the end of the board to the end of the headstock - using the dots as a reference.
5) clamp some wood as guides to the neck - and trace the end of the neck (or use another piece of wood if it's a flat "tele" end), then cut the end of the jig so that it is just a tiny bit shorter than the body so the centrelines can be matched up.
6) use a router to make the jig using the wood guides (or allow for the end to be finished using a spindle sander).
That's the next "experiment".....
I have had a misaligned neck pocket on a couple of builds. Both times on ES style bodies. Not off by much but enough so that the hole for the bridge was not 100% on the center-block. Most ES's with book-matched veneer have a built in deceptive centerline... You are so right that it does not have to be off by much to cause a problem.
I use something like your fishing line approach (I use nylon string most of the time). I usually do it with the two outer strings, and then check it with the two inner strings. I try to get the two outer strings to be equally close to the edge of the fingerboard all the way down the neck. In dry-fit, I try to get them to line up over the outer pickup poles as well. When I think I have it pretty close, I sometimes try it again with the two center strings. In this case I do exactly as you suggested. I look to see that the strings are equally close to the dots on the fingerboard. I think it works because you can see when things are off even by a little when you are looking at it over a 25" (or 34" on a bass) range. Not sure how others do it. My method is not particularly scientific and it's certainly possible that there's a better way.
It's also very easy to get the bridge slightly off perpendicular to the strings. In this case, I try to err on the side of making sure the treble side is EXACTLY in the right place, and if the bass side is slightly further oblique to perpendicular, that can only help with intonation, right? ;-)
If you need something thin to shim with, I tend to use veneer. For a few bucks, I got what has amounted to a lifetime supply on ebay. I have even used strips of it in varying lengths to make very thin wedges.
Neck alignment on a scratch body build is a tricky thing to get right! It is definitely a situation where you need to measure more than twice (in as many different ways as you can think of), and route once.
I used the 2 strings approach (both outer and inner ways mentioned by fender3x) with the bridge in position, draw the neck foot on the body, then line up my routing template. This was most nerve racking on the jarrah striped bass as I needed the strings and bridge aligned with the strips! https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post226952.
Laughs.... I'd further add that after you've measured innumerable times... go away for a while and come back and do it agin from the beginning!Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
On no less than three occasions - I thought I'd got it "perfect".... On no less than three occasions I came to the conclusion it was perhaps a premature thought!
Very nice bass.... and a striking "telection".
In particular - outstanding finishes.
Mixing a water based dye with cabot's water based poly.... I hadn't thought of that.
It's a pity the U-beaut dye is only available as a pack" - a transparent green colour with some of the "stripyness" of the Douglas Fir showing through would look good (although the wood ia an "orang-ish colour" to start with - might lead to a rather awful "green"......