+1 for the card scraper. I also often use a pop stick (ice-cream stick).
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+1 for the card scraper. I also often use a pop stick (ice-cream stick).
Has been a hectic month already.. Couldn't do much wrt Guitar build
Just small updates
Have finally leveled off the neck shim area with Timbermate. Unfortunately the timbermate that was sent was white and not natural colour. Will have to see, How it looks after grain filler and staining
https://i.ibb.co/FxBC9kL/IMG20230711102321.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WzK9QTd/IMG20230711102308.jpg
After what @fender3x said, I was worried about the glue from painters tape sticking to the veneer. At first I thought I could finish everything soon. But since it has been very hectic at work, I first need to Grain fill the sides and back, sand it and then get on with staining the top, i thought I will remove the painters tape from veneer and then cover it with newspapers and then anchor that to the body using painters tape. Finally all the masking is done.
Things to do
1. Try trimmermate stained with ebony on the Steam Beech scrap and sand to check if all is well and then go ahead and fill the back of the body and sides
2. Try various dilutions of black stain on scrap to see what dilutions should I base stain
3. Try the actual fade on scrap wood to see if it looks good and if I can pull it off or just go for single colour with Burst pattern
How are you all doing?.
Cheers,
Drashkum
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My builds are among the slowest here. Life tends to interfere with my guitar building. A common issue I think ;-)
At least the filler flattens and sands well even if the color is a bit off. You still have options. My only successful stain job had a number of issues (mostly my mistakes). I had to work pretty hard not to get streaks or blotches...or more accurately to even them out. I had problems with the fill and problems with the initial clear coat as well. This resulted in some light spots where I ended up adding more of the General Finishes dye stain that I was using. Once I got it as flat as I could I used a gel stain (Craftnique) over everything to even out the color a bit more. That went over original stain, clear filler and some clear coat. Once I had everything as even as possible, then I clear coated again.
I am mentioning this because some stains seem to work well over finish, filler, or clear coat. Usually these are not the dyes, but if you can't get the color the way you want with dye stain you might try something else to even it up. I don't necessarily recommend Craftnique, but there are gel stains, and translucent paints that are designed to go over old finishes and filler that might work well. I think there are folks here who have even drawn in "grain" over filler with a sharpy type pen. Worst case scenario you can still add a veneer "cap."
Thank you. I will keep that in mind. The problem in india is that most of these gel stains are not readily available as in US, UK or Australia. If i have to source i may have to order from websites that ship world wide and also pray that they don't levy any customs duty. Most of stains are not shippable outside continent. I was lucky that I was able to get hold of Timbermate in india.Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
Right now I have to do the guitar with fountain pen inks and stains available here. Hope I pull this off
Today had some time so tried practicing grain filling on a piece of wood that was porous and had enough rough surface to level. Stained the timbermate but it became a bit runny. So added some more in such a way that it was of right consistency of Chocolate sauce. Made use of the expired Train card to scrap the timbermate after applying on wood. I have let it dry. Will sand and see how it looks and then try to Stain one last time before I go on the guitar.
How do u guys take care of the mess that grain filler creates. I somehow have to find a way to prevent the filler from even accidently touching the veneer despite my masking. It becomes a mess all around too
https://i.ibb.co/2NQqv7t/IMG20230712184304.jpg
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I have never used Timbermate. Hoping folks who have will chime in...
I did see this vid...which may be of some help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_64HWc3mj7E&t=17s
If your slurry is too thin it looks like you might be able to just let it dry some before applying. It also looks like you can stain over it. I am not sure how you keep it from re-activating if your stain is water based, though. That can be a problem using a water based product over another water based product. Someone here should have experience with that thought!
Thankfully the stain I want to use for back is solvent based. I did sand back the mud and stained the scrap today. Will try to do a sealer and then clearcoat and see if everything is compatible and post backQuote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
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I use a 1 lb cut of dewaxed platina shellac as a sealer. It can pull a bit on water based finish below it, but I think it does so less than something water based. Alcohol is a better solvent than water, but evaporates quicker, so I try to put it on in long strokes so as not to stay long in any one spot. I see a little color on my applicator...but mostly the color on the guitar looks OK, so I use it between water-based products pretty much all the time now. I've never tried it with Timbermate, but it might be worth an experiment.
You might ask the Timbermate folks how and what to apply over it for minimal pull. Different products react differently. There are a number of water based products that will not reactivate with water. The MTN94 rattle can paint I use dries hard and will not reactivate. The water based clear that I use (General Finishes High Performance) dries hard and will reactivate a little with water, but only a little, so if I am careful I can still wet sand with water. Shellac does not reactivate with water, but will reactivate with alcohol. Water based stains I have sealed by putting shellac over them tend to pull a little but not enough to mess up the color.
It occurs to me that it might be a good experiment to try using tinted shellac rather than staining. The shellac I use is from India so it ought to be readily available. You can tint with the alcohol based dies you already have. It should work nicely even over something that has product under it. I haven't done this yet, but one of my next projects is to finish a paulownia body, and I am thinking of using either garnet shellac or tinted shellac to avoid the blotchiness that you can sometimes get with stains on an open grained wood.
The "best/worst" advice I have gotten is to spray shellac when used between coats. If you do that it shouldn't pull (best). I don't have spray equipment (worst). ;-)
https://i.ibb.co/YyH66gQ/IMG20230802165135.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/fdQGC4S/IMG20230802181233.jpg
Finally had time today to grainfill the back and sides of body and back of the neck and headstock.
It was a sloppy work. The stained slurry turned out to be thicker than expected. So the costing became a bit thicker. I am trying to sandback the thick coat with hand with 220 grit and it's proving to be a tedious process. But a good learning.
Next will be to stain the back and sides of the guitar, neck and headstock
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For better or worse, many have paid the price of tedious processes for their learning. Some of us continue to use the tedious processes because we can't seem to learn a better way (this would include all my efforts with clear coating). Keeping fingers crossed for you!
Hi guys, Need your advice as usual
I am sanding it down using a 220 grit sand paper. I am not sure when should I stop sanding. Should i go till the wood?. How to prevent sanding through the grainfiller to wood. Also there are these whitish patches seen. I have tried to wipe with a brush but not able to get rid of it. Should i wipe down with alcohol?
https://youtube.com/shorts/lzjd6c2xIFE?feature=share
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You certainly want to sand back to the wood, leaving a flat surface, so that you've still got timbermate filling the pores but not so much that you sand off the layer of wood with the filled pores and expose more pores beneath it. It's a fine balance and often a single grain fill and sand isn't enough and you need to fill and sand two or three times.
However, the basswood itself doesn't need grain filling, so you're sanding down to the wood leaving the small dents and scratches filled. The body will be a basswood ply, with a thin veneer of figured basswood on the top. SO you need to be careful when sanding back not to go too far.
The neck is solid maple, so you're free to sand that as much as you want until you only have the Timbermate filling any dents there may be.
I'm not sure about the white marks. They seem to correspond to places where it looked like there were some glue marks in earlier pictures, so it may be how the Timbermate looks like on top of those patches. Worst case is that you've sanded too far in those areas and hit the glue layer between veneer plys. I've done that myself.
It's very hard to tell without having it in front of you, even with a video.
https://i.ibb.co/mJWtDC8/IMG20230803221205.jpg
The body of the replacement that i got doesn't seem to be basswood. In above picture the guitar body on right is what I got at first which seemed to be a basswood. But this one with neck glues was sent as a replacement and the back didn't look anywhere like other one. It looked more like ones with open pore like. Mahogany and that's why I chose to grainfill.
As you can from above pic the back of the guitar with neck glued looks blotchy. Does that mean I have to sand the darker areas?
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Basswood can vary quite a bit with the amount of grain...but more subtle like the one on the right looks about like what I would expect, and frankly, like the one I finished with just clear. But basswood is a closed grain wood. If you have an open grain wood then it's not basswood. Could be Okoume, which is a lighter colored sometimes than mahogany. The tree is not related to mahogany but it's sometimes used as a cheaper substitute, particularly in veneers. It's also showing up a lot in guitar bodies. I think it's probably safe to treat it as you would open-grained mahogany.
There were some kits that had ‘mahogany’ ply for a shirt while. This may be one of them. The mahogany guitars I’ve had (two), had less obvious grain than your guitar, but as Fender3x says, there are lots of woods that look similar and so come under the general ‘mahogany’ classification.
Yes, I agree that grain filling was necessary.
Finally the day for staining back of the guitar comes. Had 2 options
1. Teak yellow ( Orangish yellow)
2 Walnut ( Brown)
Decided to go with first as brown Is very common.
https://i.ibb.co/y87L06F/IMG20230816171657.jpg
Finally tried my hand at staining after watching numerous videos on staining. At first it was dark I tried to pull up some colour with Thinner. Now it looks this way.
Does this look blotchy?
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Maybe a little on the left side where the arch begins. If it's a slight blotch it's not much more than natural variation you'd expect to see in the wood. You might be able to get it a bit lighter with careful use of thinner. I probably would not attempt it, not being very good at staining I'd be nervous about making it worse.
This seems like the sort of thing that my MD friend told me he learned in surgery rotation in med school: "Excellent is the enemy of the very good." It looks very good. I have lost count of the times I have really messed something up when it was already very good ;-)
Yeah. Don't tell me. Being an orthopaedic surgeon we do that all time. We aim for acceptable reduction of bones. If in the process reduction becomes 100% it's great... But we never try to make an acceptable reduction into a excellent reduction and fixation as what was 90% will become 60%Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
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It’s going to come down to whether you are happy with it. There appears to be some colour variation in the photo, but it’s hard to tell what’s in shadow and appears dark that isn’t, and what’s in the light so isn’t as dark as it might be. And the grain pattern can affect the results depending on the viewing angle.
There are three basic paths you can take here. 1. You can leave it as it is, with some slight variation in colour depth and see it as a natural thing. 2. You can try and lighten the darker patches. 3. You can add more stain to darken the lighter patches.
My approach when staining has been the latter one and I’ve added more stain (often a more concentrated stain), on the lighter areas after the initial staining. If that doesn’t work, then it’s definitely the wood itself and there’s not a lot you can do about that.
My method has its drawbacks in that you can end up with a lot darker finish than you intended.
As I have spray equipment, I have the extra option of using tinted lacquers to help even things out. More coats of a tinted lacquer will darken the colour, so you spray a bit more on the lighter areas to get a more uniform colour. But again, this gives a darker finish so may not be what you are looking for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
Thank you @fender3x and @Simon Barden for the insights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
I did try to pull out some stains with thinner today. I didn't want to make it darker as the sanding sealer and clearcoat would make it even darker. There are some parts in wood at the back that have taken more stain and look Orangish brown and fewer lighter spots which are yellowish. I think that's the way would would take stain. I think more I do more uneven it would become so i leaving it like this
https://youtube.com/shorts/pTQKOBpRIMQ?feature=share
https://i.ibb.co/xH7bDjp/IMG20230817170018.jpg
Now that stain is done for back, should I sand it and then apply a sanding sealer?. I did use a alcohol based stain, so there is no grain raising at all. If i run my hand it feel just smooth as it was before.
I am trying to source a sanding sealer spray which is available here as I fear that regular sanding sealer would pull out the stain more.
https://bannasprays.com/shop/wood-ca...or-polish.html
Or should I use a brush and paint the regular sanding sealer and not use a rag?
After sanding sealer I may start to stain the front veneer. Base coat with light black and the sand and colour stain it
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Looks OK to me.
No need to sand yet. Wait until after you've got some sanding sealer on.
I'd use a spray as you've got stain on the body now.
It would be good to know what exactly is in that sanding sealer, but they don't tell you and there's no product safety sheet for it.
So whilst TruOil does go on top of almost anything without problems, before you put any sanding sealer on the guitar, it would definitely be worth spraying a coat on a scrap bit of wood and when dry, then trying some TruOil on top just to check it doesn't react.
Looks great to me! Particularly in the vid.
Just got a newbie doubt. I may sound silly. Pls pardon
Normally how.many coats of stain should be done?
I know for the front I cannot sand and Restain the veneer endlessly. For the back?. But is there a specific number if coats that i need to do for it to soak into the wood and not stay very superficial? Or should i go based on the colour I want to achieve?
Even for the front is there a number of coats I need to stain.
Pls pardon my ignorance
Drashkum
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The stain is all for effect. If it's got the depth of colour you want, you've put enough stain on.
When staining there will come a point when you can add more stain but the wood won't get any darker (at least not without moving to a darker stain). But for the back, as you've lightened the stain in places, you haven't reached that stage yet.
Just view the stain as a tool, say like a scalpel. You can make a shallow cut or a deep cut with it, but you only apply enough pressure to achieve the depth of cut you want.
Have you decided on what colour you want to stain the top? You were still trying to decide what colour, quite a few posts back before you switched to posting about the back.
You can do a bit of light sanding on the top, but you only really get one go at it. But you really shouldn't need to sand it apart from a very light run over to remove any loose fibres.
Thank you @Simon Barden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
Yes. I switched over to staining the back so that i could get some practice on staining the real body before Staining the veneer. I thought even if it goes wrong it would be only at the back and not at the front.
I have sort of zeroed in on the colour. It's mostly going to be this Purplish pink
https://i.ibb.co/xF8v0Lc/IMG-20230819-175133.jpg
Or it could be olive green which i get by staining green and then yellow on it which I had posted earlier
I am going to try to lightly base stain the veneer with very diluted black just 1 pass and then sand very light and then use either of these colour.
Olive green has a few advantages
All black, green and yellow are alcohol based stains so i can get a lighter shade by using a thinner to pull out the stain if I want if the stain is darker. Also it didn't raise the grain as it was all alcohol based.
The purplish pink is all water based stain. It's all fountain pen inks.
To achieve this colour I need to dilute 1 part Violet with 4 parts of water and stain the wood and then stain the pink on top of it
I tried to Dilute them with thinner yesterday but they didn't mix well in thinner and started to precipitate. It gets diluted in water very well.
I am afraid that too much water will cause veneer to bubble up. And if stain is darker I may have to use water to blend them
And also since its waterbased it raised the grain on scrap wood that i stained. If it does the same on veneer again I have a risk of sand through
So i am trying to source The same colour as single stain in toner based stain. There is a leather stain maker here who can do custom alcohol based stain if given a hex colour code. I am in talks with him
https://cratly.com/products/custom-l...e-color-500-ml
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I've used water-based stains on veneered basswood. You aren't soaking the wood enough to loosen any glue when staining, or you certainly shouldn't be. Let the wood dry properly after each application of stain so you can see the final colour.
Better to use too diluted a stain to start with than too concentrated. You can always stain again, or move up to a more concentrated stain if it remains too light.
The water might raise the grain a bit, but it's only loose wood fibres that pop up, and a lot of people will dampen the veneer anyway to get them to pop up so they can be removed. You only need a very light sand over the top. Stewart Macdonald in their guitar finishing book call this a 'drag-sand', as you just hold a piece of sandpaper by the edge and drag it over the surface a few times to pull the loose fibres off. You really aren't taking any depth off the veneer doing this.
https://i.ibb.co/SnHtkD4/IMG20230821150255.jpg
Finally got the sanding sealer spray today. The ones made in india. These are Nitrocellulose sanding spray. Was skeptical at first when the bottle said wood polish. Then called them up and they asked me to look at the bottom of spray bottle to see what is written.
https://i.ibb.co/M8R8Jbk/IMG20230821150303.jpg
Sprayed 3 coats of SS on scrap wood stained. Lucky that it doesn't pull out the stain. Will leave it to dry overnight and sand it with 320 and spray coats of 1k clear tomorrow to see if it is compatible. If everything is OK, I shall go ahead to spray the guitar body with sanding sealer and the start staining the top.
https://i.ibb.co/Bz8LmRj/IMG20230821182800.jpg
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https://i.ibb.co/SwH4nTB/IMG20230823163417.jpg
3 coats of sanding sealer spray done. The 1st spray rattle can is almost empty. I'm letting it dry and cure a bit.
The sanding sealer has darkened the colour yellowish brown to a more brownish hue. Is this normal? Will it lighten after the clearcoat a bit?. Wish I had stained it much lighter. All a learning experience.
Should i sand it before I stain the front or let it be till I finish the front?
Have to remove the tapes and reapply new ones. Looks Like the The bindings are stained too despite my effort of 2 layers of Fine taping and applying a clearcoat on it. What tools do u use to scrape the binding?
Finally got finer grits If sandpaper from automobile store.
https://i.ibb.co/wcCg359/IMG20230823165157.jpg
Wish me luck
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I like the colour you have, but I know it's disappointing when you don't get quite the colour you're after.
I'm afraid clear won't lighten it. Clear is rarely 100% clear, and always tends to have a slight tint to it, however faint that tint may be. And clear either leaves things the same, or it can make things look even darker. The relatively rough surface of the sanding sealer is reflecting/dispersing light in many directions so tends to make the finish look a bit lighter. A flat, polished clear coat doesn't reflect light in the same way, so you get the true colour coming through.
There are any number of tools people use to scrape bindings. A selection are shown on this Google search page:
https://www.google.com/search?client...&bih=899&dpr=1
I've used single-sided razor blades and craft-knife/Stanley knife blades clamped in some broom handle, or blades just with several rolls of tape wound round to act as a depth stop. On the thin edge of the binding or in F-holes I've used a scalpel. I've also used a mould line removal tool (for model kits) as this has a nice firm blade with a slight burr on it.
https://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/modelcr...431041000.html
I have been using one of these cheap box cutting knives.
Attachment 44759
I am not very expert at binding scraping...and mostly I have used this to touch up where the tape did not adequately do the job.
I scrape binding using a razor blade bolted in a split wooden dowel (this was suggested by McCreed - thanks McCreed).
Like mentioned at https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post183917.
Finally got the guts to do a base stain black on the veneer
https://i.ibb.co/ySdkssk/IMG20230904103226.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/hMQqYf0/IMG20230904103246.jpg
I diluted the 3 ml of the Charcoal stain ( alcohol based) with 15 ml (1:5 dilution) water and wiped it of one pass with a rag and then used a rag with thinner to pull out excess stain from the top in slow and circular motion making it less blotchy. And then wiping of with clean rag. I am allowing it to dry.
It obviously has a few spots which has not taken stain well and it looks like the veneer was sanded through in those areas when it came from factory itself. . A couples of glue spots and a central glue line Which needs to be addresses.
How long before I sand it softly with 320/400?
Does this look Ok? Should I have to stain the pickup cavity too?
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Good on you its coming along nicely, do you give it another sand now again i wonder?
Interesting process.
I’d wait a day before the light sanding. That should be more than enough tine for all the solvent to evaporate.
There’s really not a lot you can do about the central glue line now. Once you’ve got the main stain on, that’s the time I’d have a go at trying to do something about it. I’ve often used a coloured Sharpie run along the line to at least get close to the colour of the top. Or mix up some acrylic artists paints to match the colour. It will never be perfect, but it will be far less noticeable.
I can’t see any evidence of factory sand-through of the veneer on the top. Having done it myself I know it would be very noticeable. As the veneer is already smooth before it’s applied, there wouldn’t be any need to sand it. The factory won’t use any more processes than are necessary to get the kit out of the factory door, as they all take time, and time is money (and so less profit).
No need to stain the pickup pockets at all, though I would use a few coats of clear on them.
https://i.ibb.co/VTXz7wN/IMG20230904175728.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
This is how it looks after wiping down with wet rag... Its taken more black than I would have preferred.
Do u people thing if its good for me to go ahead with colours?
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You'll need to sand it back first, so there's some unstained wood to take up the main colour otherwise it will all just be a darker shade of that colour, the same as if you mixed in some black with the main stain.
https://i.ibb.co/WPj1MQC/IMG20230907103726.jpg
Finally coloured it... Does this look ok? Or blotchy?
Ofcourse there is a central glue line and small area in veneer which didn't take the stain well.
But overall does this look ok?. Or do I have to sand back and do something?
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It's not perfect, but it's also not terrible either. Some of the slightly less uniform stain areas will be covered up by hardware, like pickup surrounds.
I don't think that particular top was ever going to show really strong flame patterns, though they will probably come through a bit more with clear over the top.
You could have a go at adding more stain around the bridge pickup area and around the base of the neck, to see if it will take a bit more colour. I'd try dabbing it on with cotton wool.
That centre join stripe isn't going to disappear with stain, so you either chose to live with it, or try and colour it over using a permanent marker or some paint of a matching colour, or you paint a centre stripe over the top of it with a contrasting colour.
Some people have used it as an opportunity to paint some racing stripes along the centre line, or you can get them in sticker format e.g. https://www.inlaystickers.com/products/racing-line
I spoiled it in the evening. I should have left it at 80% good. As @fender3x would say, trying to Make 80% good to 100% I sanded through. I only have myself to blame for It. Damn.
I shouldn't have touched it in evening after I left it to dry. I am cursing myself now. This has been a good hard lesson for me. I am leaving it to dry and apply sanding sealer tomorrow and going to accept it as it is.
https://i.ibb.co/612w8Ts/IMG20230907173936.jpg
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Don’t apply sanding sealer if the top is stained, it is only for bare wood before sanding.
If that last picture is taken after the sanding incident, then it looks good enough not to worry too much about. I’d be tempted to do something about the centre join-line stripe, but that’s it.
Yes, @Simon Barden. Last pic is after sanding incident I stopped once I realised I'm going through. Good to know that it still looks ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
But it's like a musicians curse right?. Musicians can never appreciate their tracks that their listeners adore as they know what mistakes they have done.
Should i not apply 3 coats of sanding sealer over stain to seal the stain and then sand slightly and apply rattle can PU?
Rattle can 1K clear causes stain to blotch without sanding sealer
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