Christodav's MM-1Q

Waz, even when I was using the liquid TO on the first few coats, the dye was 'melting' and bleeding. Obviously, the black did the same on the back, but it didn't matter as it is black and really looks like paint rather than stain now.
I believe it's the Angelus Leather Dye not being locked in. I have watched a couple more of Big Dog Guitars videos on Youtube and he says to use the sanding sealer after the dye every time.

In normal lighting in the house, the surface of the top looks red with a slight banding effect underneath. The dye and the TO have blended together and this gets worse after a second coat. It goes to show how deep the TO penetrates with further layers. Last time, I sanded it back and then added more red dye, (probably a mistake) and it looked great as you saw from the photos until the next day when it all started to turn muddy. I am going to try the sanding sealer this time and see what happens. At least a few more more days until that can happen.

Chris

So Back onto the back for now - drying nicely. I am going to give it a few more days and then scrape the binding AGAIN, then give the sides a couple of coats with Tru-Oil before trying the top for a 3rd time. I bought some sanding sealer in an aerosol can from Ebay and see if I can get the red to stay where it belongs.


http://i.imgur.com/1eYLF1V.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZoKiTEG.jpg

Chris

Bugger Dude, that was such a sweet looking finish effect too. Ah well the trials and tribulations lead to more knowledge and better technique at the end of it. I still think this is going to come up Ace!

I'm confident that I'll get there in the end.

I'll be upset if this doesn't work out Chris, that quilt was stunnnig

http://i.imgur.com/ikgx0FT.jpg

Slowly working through this thing. I have sprayed a coat of sanding sealer. (Which I should have done from the beginning.) I have found a couple of spots of Tru-oil puddles under LED torchlight I missed sanding out - so kinda back to the drawing board. By that I mean, there are a couple of spots that still show up brown. These are areas which were a little deeper and where the Tru-oil has mixed in with the dye and caused the "brown effect". Because I was very careful not to sand through the top I missed these spots and didn't think it would be a problem but I was wrong. The good news is that the sanding sealer seems to have done its job and the top is mat and showing the colour through nicely. Tomorrow, if I can get the brown areas sanded back without going through the top we'll be back in business.

I think I like it without the pick-up rings. What do you think? There will be a little bit of mucking about to get them mounted without the rings, but it might be worth the effort?

Chris

Wow, when you get the binding scraped and polished off that is going to be killer.. you and KICK could make a sinister group both with killer red axes..

Great job..

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Originally Posted by Drummerdude

Wow, when you get the binding scraped and polished off that is going to be killer.. you and KICK could make a sinister group both with killer red axes..

Great job..

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There's a band name, Killer Red Axes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drummerdude

Wow, when you get the binding scraped and polished off that is going to be killer.. you and KICK could make a sinister group both with killer red axes..

Great job..

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I see a similarity and indeed we could go for new 'Sinister' range of axes ;)

Interesting thought on the pups without rings.
I think you're right. It would look a lot cleaner across the top of the guitar that way.


Sent from outta space using MartianTalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OliSam

Interesting thought on the pups without rings.
I think you're right. It would look a lot cleaner across the top of the guitar that way.

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That is how the genuine EVH Wolfgangs are done. FrankenWashie was looking at doing similar on one of his builds where you make a plate or bracket that sits in the bottom of the PUP cavity and allows height adjustment screws to do their stuff upside down. If the brackets are not made from high tensile steel the screws should tap a thread themselves as you screw them into a relatively softer metal.

Wish I come across that idea when I top loaded PUP's without rings on my EX-1.

http://i.imgur.com/laC6bIk.jpg

I've had SO MANY issues with this top, but I seem to be finally coming to the end. It has challenged me and really got me angry and satisfied at the same time. I did everything wrong and I am amazed that it may just work out! To give you an idea, the top picture was taken tonight.

http://i.imgur.com/54qkgf8.jpg

This is where I was at this morning!

............and the picture below is an example of the problems I have been having.

http://i.imgur.com/7pF6H6b.jpg


So, where did I go wrong????

Fearing that I would sand through the top, I didn't sand the thing at all and went straight into dying the top. I think because the laminate grain was open, the dye was sucked in quite easily. I just kept on going with the dye several times. I don't remember how many applications, but far too many! I then went ahead with several (too many) coats of Tru-oil both spray and liquid. As it got flat and even, the dye blended with the tru-oil and turned brown. I was still too scared to sand too much, but as I started to sand, I found it was brown in puddles and didn't always brown up everywhere. I then watched many videos on You tube and discovered the obvious. a) I had applied WAY too much dye and b) I should have used a sanding sealer before applying the Tru-oil.
There was heaps of dye sitting on the surface as well as I had added more dye in the beginning probably over the top of some Tru-oil. I started using sanding sealer and sanding back the top and it started to work to a point. I still had patches where it would turn brown after applying the sealer.
The further I progressed the worse things got until today.

Today, I decided to bite the bullet and sand further than ever before. First the sanded dust was clear, then quickly pink and then finally a darker red. I still had quilt and I had a brighter colour. There were spots where the red was sanded off and back to the quilted maple, but only a few areas. I then opted to go again with the sanding sealer and after a few mist coats at 10 min intervals I suddenly had a mat quilt finish and no brown patches! I did however have a few very faded areas and the colour was patchy. So, I sanded back the sealer again and reluctantly wiped over the top with a bit of black and red dye, mainly concentrating on the faded areas. (There are still 2 areas that I am not pleased with, but I am thinking I will call it a day whilst I am ahead.) One more time with the sanding sealer process and I am where I am now!
Although I have got the Tru-oil on the back and sides, I am going to give the nitro lacquer a go as it matches the sanding sealer.I am not sure if I need to sand back the sealer before the clear, but I don't think I need to? Thoughts?

SO................. I am a lucky man and the guitar lives to see another day for now. Fingers crossed that the lacquer goes on without the dye being ruined again.

Chris

Nice save mate. Looking good now.

This is going to be very pretty when its finished. Nice work.

OK, that was scary!!!!!!!!!!

2 coats of Lacquer and now I'll leave it dry until tomorrow. As I sprayed it, the guitar just turned red and slowly the quilt and the black re-appeared out of the 'mud'. I'm still not sure what will happen, but I hope it all works out. I am also not sure what will happen with the lacquer over spray hitting some of the Tru-oil on the sides? I din't think of that before I started.

FINGERS CROSSED! I so want this to work now!

Chris

*UPDATE*

After 2 coats of lacquer................

http://i.imgur.com/P9RrhB2.jpg

Chris have you got any fingernails left? It all looks like it's going the right way now, but man oh man the trials and tribulations on the finish, good on you for sticking at it!

*Applauding to Chris!*

:)

Yep we can all feel your angst. These things look easy but have a way of curve balling you at the slightest error. Keep going its looking great

Thanks gents!

You've defiantly earned your Guitar Rescue badge mate, should be smooth sailing from her on in :D

Beautiful. Hard to imagine it is the same guitar! Well done.


Sent from outta space using MartianTalk

Nicely done. Talk about turning lemons into lemonade. She's looking beautiful.

So, it might just work?!?!
It is certainly not exactly the way I imagined it to look, but it's not too shabby. After all the sanding back etc I did manage to lose the black around the edges, but I am lucky to have managed what I have after the disaster of laying way too much dye in the first place.
The binding isn't great, as it ended up with red stain on it in parts. I might be able to fix some of it if i'm lucky?

https://i.imgur.com/yRzKKhI.jpg
The photo was taken today after the last coats laid about 24 hours before.


I now have a question for the experts out there......
I have lost count of how many clear nitro coats I have on the top. I have got to the stage where it is now nice and flat, smooth and a sheen. I have at least 6 medium passes on it and I have only sanded it back lightly twice. Also, I have quite a few dust layers of sanding sealer on there as well. I still have a few coats left in the can, but I am tempted to wait a week and start the wet sand and polish process. None of the coats I would consider as heavy coats. this last session was laid in two coats 40mins apart after a very light 400grit dry sand to flatten the surface and it worked.
How many clear coats would you normally expect to lay on a guitar?

Chris

Chris, I would PM Phrozin if no-one gets back to you on your Nitro question. I haven't used Nitro in ages

Thanks Andy.

I really love that color! Well done job sir :)

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Originally Posted by Andy40

Chris, I would PM Phrozin if no-one gets back to you on your Nitro question. I haven't used Nitro in ages

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Andy have talk to Chris hes on the right track, will look pretty good when hes finished....

Thanks Phroz

Oh, man. Now you've got me scared. I'm about to start an MM1 build shortly (my first), and finish is what I've been most worried about. I've got some keda dyes that I plan to work with, and hadn't decided yet if I was going to do a Tru-Oil or rattle can clearcoat.

Glad it worked out, even if it wasn't exactly what you wanted. I've got a small pile of scrap wood to work with before I start in on the guitar, but I'm definitely taking some learnings from this.

Hey there Chris, I used Nitro on my GR-1SF, and from memory I did about 6-8 coats of clear. If you can wait longer for the final rub down you'll end up with a better finish. 1 week at a minimum. 28 days best.

I do believe someone mentioned on the forum that using a rag and a small amount of methylated spirits and rubbing the binding carefully will remove the stain? I could be wrong.

Joe I doubt metho will remove stain on binding. Usually it needs to be carefully scraped with a razor/sharp blade or rubbed with fine steel wool.

That was me. Yes it does work. As does using micro mesh pads with water.

ok cheers IRL I had no idea it worked, I will take back my prior comment. I will try next time will be easier than rubbing steel wool/pads or scraping. Might depend on the type of stain how effective metho is removing the stain.

I've only used water based stains and it works fine. Don't know about spirit or oil based. But the pads are great. Gives a nice clean, straight edge to work with.

cheers IRL, I use the micro mesh pads (1500 to 12000 grit) to give the body/neck a final sand before I polish it and the results are excellent.

Firstly, thanks everyone who has provided feedback. I am really, really grateful.

So, 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

After a week or so, I ended up polishing it up. I first went with a wet sand with 1000 grit, micromesh 3 grades, then Meg's Mirror Glaze #7 and then Ultimate Compound. I still have some fine scratches under light, but it's not bad at all. I think a rub with Scratch X and it will be pretty much scratch free. Given that I leave the guitar in a warm place and that the coats have been fairly light, the clear has dried very fast.

I have almost run out of the Behlen Clear (not enough for more than one light coat) and I have ordered another can. There are a couple of small areas on the top that are not quite flat and therefore have the intents showing through. A spot on each horn and and small area near where your elbow sits. You have to look very carefully to see, but I can see them. I knew where the problem areas were and I thought that if I was lucky, I could sand those spots out, but at the same time I was very careful with the wet sanding to very light and not take any more off than was required. I could try the process again and that might work, but I have come this far and I might as well get it right and spray another 3 coats and cut it back.

Here is another interesting thing. I suffer from colour blindness - red and green. If you don't know about colour blindness, (most people I come across have trouble understanding the term), I don't see in black and white. I do have trouble with shades. So, a certain red might like brown to me or an orange to someone without the condition might still look red to me. With the shine on the guitar, the yellowing hue of the lacquer and the black dye kinda running and blending into the red the top has a very interesting mix of colour tones. I wanted it to look like it did at the start - bright red with black highlights. I can get that effect with a camera using a flash, but with my eyes it does not look like that in the flesh.My family members describe the colours different to the way I describe them.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spychocyco

Oh, man. Now you've got me scared. I'm about to start an MM1 build shortly (my first), and finish is what I've been most worried about. I've got some keda dyes that I plan to work with, and hadn't decided yet if I was going to do a Tru-Oil or rattle can clearcoat.

Glad it worked out, even if it wasn't exactly what you wanted. I've got a small pile of scrap wood to work with before I start in on the guitar, but I'm definitely taking some learnings from this.

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Thanks for your input.

Let's make things clear up-front. I am very inexperienced as a guitar kit builder. I have completed 1 guitar and this is my second. What I am about to write is based on my little experience, reading this fine forum and watching Youtube.

The biggest thing that has to be worked around with these kits is the extremely thin laminate cap. If it was a proper thick cap, it would be a pretty easy process in my mind. The fact of the matter is that when working with dyes, you really need to be able to sand back to get an easy outcome especially when you have more than one color, or when you are doing bursts and the like. You can't do that with a thin laminate.

The things that I have learnt

Check for glue marks and any holes that might be needed to to be filled and fix these things first. Sand as lightly as required. I wouldn't sand the top fully at this stage, but the back and sides of course.
Check out people's build diaries. Almost every first page or two talks about glue marks and holes. fill holes with Timbermate and get rid of glue with Goof-off.
Apply the dye(s) thinly to the raw top and then lightly sand it back to obtain a flat surface and required colours. Do not add more than 2 applications of dye on the top. You run the risk of the dye 'swimming' in the clear coats. The less dye the better, but enough to survive the light sand after the application. Also, allow time for the dye to fully dry before the next step.
When you are happy with the colours, use a sanding sealer and dust spray it in several very light coats to seal in the dye and then you can go with a clear. Most clear will add a yellow hue and this includes Tru-oil and lacquer. Wipe on Poly and more modern clear spays will be clearer. If you use tru-oil over a blue dye fore example, you may end up with green tones. This must be considered. It will depend on what you prefer to work with and the look and finish you are after. In my mind, there is no right or wrong, as long as you get the results you wanted.

Good Luck

Chris

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Originally Posted by christodav

Here is another interesting thing. I suffer from colour blindness - red and green. If you don't know about colour blindness, (most people I come across have trouble understanding the term), I don't see in black and white. I do have trouble with shades. So, a certain red might like brown to me or an orange to someone without the condition might still look red to me. With the shine on the guitar, the yellowing hue of the lacquer and the black dye kinda running and blending into the red the top has a very interesting mix of colour tones. I wanted it to look like it did at the start - bright red with black highlights. I can get that effect with a camera using a flash, but with my eyes it does not look like that in the flesh.My family members describe the colours different to the way I describe them.

Chris

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Hi Chris, my eldest son is Red/Green deficient too, inherited from Grandfather on my Wife's side as it is women who pass on the gene from one generation to the next. Apparently this condition can be as high as 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 in males and about 1 in 20 for females.

Top effort considering you have chosen one of your 'tricky' colours.

My son always had trouble picking up the red component in purples as they always looked blue to him. Both he and the father-in-law comment that primary natural colours aren't so hard to pick, but it is more the man made shades and hues where greens, reds, browns can sometimes blend into each other.

Almost done!

I just have to solder the pick-ups and then some fine tuning. I am really pleased with the neck, but a little disappointed with the body finish, but it's not bad for my second guitar. (3rd time lucky.)

https://i.imgur.com/vLp8NW4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VoSeXNJ.jpg

Chris