some more great advice from Weirdy, knitting needles, will see if I can grab some
you finished that tele yet mate ? You must be going for slowest build of the decade award ? (SBOTDA)
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some more great advice from Weirdy, knitting needles, will see if I can grab some
you finished that tele yet mate ? You must be going for slowest build of the decade award ? (SBOTDA)
Boy oh boy, I could really run with this one Woks......Quote:
Originally Posted by wokkaboy
But I choose not to :p :)
DB the knitting needles won't be for knitting, remember I'm not hitting the big milestone this year like some other moderators bwhahaha
C'mon Woks, anyone that takes as much gear to the Cricket as you just has to be secret knitter :)
hahha good one DB, well who was the smart one who didn't have to queue for food or drinks all day ?
Rob, sorry about the thread jack mate !
@ Andrew, Gav, Tony
Thanks guys
@DB
Thanks mate. I wasn't too sure about seeing the fibres of the bamboo, but it kind of gives it a natural look.
@Woks
No fret markers Warren. She will just have side dot markers at the usual spacing 3,5,7 etc. Hopefully they will get me in the ball-park. I always found that with bass, when you play is more important that what you play. Plus I fully expect the whole band to suddenly start playing out of tune when I start playing anyway. lol.
@Scott
Knitting needles!!! What a great Idea. I had been racking my brain trying to think of alternatives.
Thanks again guys.
I reckon the look of the end grain of bamboo is really nice, so thats a win in my books..Quote:
Originally Posted by robin
so DB bamboo has nicer grain than plastic knitting needles ? haha
Yhep. And also we can't be taking your needles away from ya Woks, we all know how much you love knitting :p
DB, it was Weirdy who suggested knitting needles so he must be a bigger fan of knitting than me !
I wish I had a Plan B!!
The polyester coating turned out to be a disaster.
Either a) the wood reacted with the Poly Resin or b) I didn’t stir/mix in the catalyst enough, or c) high humidity or d) the layer of Poly was too thick. Anyway, after pouring the poly resin onto the FB all went well for about 40 minutes, in fact I was quite chuffed as the FB looked like it was behind a sheet of clear glass. But then, the 5mm thick sheet of Poly Resin started to delaminate from the FB. It started with a few air bubbles in the middle, then they started to appear along the whole length of the FB.
I was able to lift a sheet of resin off the FB in one piece. The top surface had cured and gone rock hard but the resin in contact with the wood had not cured and was still tacky.
I will sand back the gunk that’s on the FB tomorrow and see if there is enough resin left in the tin to lay one thin coat on top of what’s left on the FB. That will give me an indication as to whether I can “burn in” another few THIN layers of poly. If I can then I will buy some more resin and keep going. If not I will have to find a plan B.
I am confident that I can save the FB, but it may not look as nice as I had hoped. If I can still get an instrument that plays well then I’ll be more than satisfied.
My biggest regret is that DB went to great lengths to get me this lovely piece of Rosewood and I feel that I need to do it justice. Sorry DB.
Pics of the delaminated piece of Poly resin
S-T-R-I-K-E.........2
Tried with the Polyester resin again. This time I made sure that the fingerboard was free of any oils or sweat, checked and double checked the mixing ratio of resin and catalyst, poured a thinner layer, but a fortunately the same result.
After about 40 minutes the bubbles began to appear from the wood again, although the top was hard as nails it had not cured against the FB, and was delaminating like the first try.
Hopefully I've taken operator error out of the equation, so that leaves a) some sort of reaction to the rosewood, b) I'm still trying to pour too thick a layer of resin or c) a dud batch of resin. I could try "painting" on several thin coats but to be honest I think I am done with polyester resin.
I can see 2 options, sand back what's left of the dodgy resin and just go with a naked wood fingerboard or try EPOXY resin!
Having already established that I am pretty stupid and a masochist to boot, no prize for guessing which way I am going.
There is a local boat chandlers near me so I will go down there later today and sus out their epoxy.
Not giving up..........yet ;)
Rob what a bummer, I'd sand back the resin and put thin super glue on. That's what DB uses and I've had great success with it sealing fingerboards.
O poo!
I have a feeling the Rosewood's natural oils are the problem..
I would guarantee the rosewood oils are the problem, if you ever seen a rosewood neck someone tried to shoot poly over, thats what happens, i have one in the shed on an old acoustic some kid thought would look cool shiny.
it will sand back mate, and i'd stay away from epoxy and poly, i think you will keep getting this result...
build is going well though and its looking great
Thanks Woks, DB, Tony and Stan.
You are probably right but you are too late guys. I went straight out and bought some epoxy. I will have one last try with laying a thick coat on the FB and if this doesnt work I will probably try DB's super glue trick.
I'm persevering with the thick coating as I didn't do such a good job with radius block on the FB. It might be ok but I doubt that it will be good enough. I am hoping that with a layer of about 3mm of epoxy and what I learnt from my first attempt I might be able to get a better result.
Hey, building these guitars is stretching my abilities and I'm learning heaps as I go and enjoying the challenge, so it's all good. On the positive side, I've already found 2 ways that polyester doesn't work on rosewood lol.
Cheers guys
Rob may pay to lay on thinner coats but build them up. Maybe it is bubbling because you are applying coats too thick.
To be on the safe side I would see how say a 1mm coat goes and if it doesn't bubble then build it up
Yeah Woks, I was thinking that exact same thing.
I asked the guy in the shop about it. He was extremely helpful and had a lot of experience working with epoxy. He said that subsequent coats would have to go on after the epoxy starts to set but before it sets hard. He said a window of anything from 45min to 1.5 hours depending on weather, mix ratio etc. If I got it right the next coat would 'burn in', but if I got it wrong the subsequent coat might not take and if it did I could get witness lines if I sanded through a coat.
He said I should have no trouble with 5mm +/-, he said that he has done 25mm in one pour, no probs. But he had no experience with rosewood. :/
Fingers crossed, I will have a go tomorrow. Not real confident, but I'll never know if I don't try.
fair enough Rob, well best of luck and hope we don't see STRIKE 3 in the heading tomoz !
Lol. Thanks Warren, strike 3, 4, 5, it doesn't matter. Whatever it takes to get a good guitar. I'm prepared for a long haul.
haha hope not Rob, the good thing is you have spare time on your side !
Hope it works out for you! I wish I was stuck with a timber gremlin not a electrical one !!
Thanks Shazz. Yeah timber probs are always easier to trouble shoot than electrickery ones.
I've been keeping an eye on your build Shazz, and now you've got all the wiring out of your guitar, it might be time to start again. Its not rocket science, just take your time and make sure each connection has been soldered correctly and move on to the next one.
Make sure that no bare wires are touching and check and double check all your earth connections. Use a multimeter to check continuity with all the earth connections with the back of each pot and the earth connection of your output plug. Also make sure that you have the whole thing earthed to one of your bridge posts.
Hope you get it sorted soon mate, she is a beautiful guitar and I can't wait to here her sing.
Love ya perserverance Robin :)
I really should banish you to the naughty room for using epoxy on your build, but your experiments have got my interest :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingobass
Thanks Phil. Perserverance/stupidity..............tomato/tomayto.:confused:
I would have thought that I had a 5 x life sentence in the NW for introducing the Forums to Naughty Oil. :p
Cheers mate.
Hey Rob, yeah I got 3 x life so think you would have less. Although introducing TO is bit of a crime introducing it to the forum on that lovely walnut IB-5 GOTM winner,
any news on the epoxy coat or you still sanding it back ?
best of luck with #3
Hey Warren, finished preping the fingerboard this morning and the epoxy has now been on for about 4 hours, and looks to have bonded to the fingerboard. Apparently epoxy takes longer to cure than polyester resin, so I am trying to keep my excitement under control.
From what I can gather after researching MILLIONS of forums is that the longer you leave it before putting it under stress the stronger it will be. As it happens I will not be able to do any work on the bass until Tuesday or Wednesday, so that will be the test for me. I will try and start sanding it back then and I will see how well it has bonded. But I am cautiously optimistic at this stage.
I haven't included any photos or details at this stage as it might be a bit premature if it all goes belly up. If all goes well next week I will start detailing my experience then.
Thanks Lyn, I can't wait to hear her sing either!!Quote:
Originally Posted by robin
It sucks cause it was all good before I tried fitting it... No hum or anything and under testing was perfect.
Just waitng for my new wire and pots ready to start again :)
Hope the epoxy goes well for you!
Third time lucky!
The Epoxy resin has worked far better than the polyester resin. I think I’ll leave polyester to cheap crappy shirts.
The Epoxy seems to have bonded very well to the Rosewood with no signs of delaminating. At this stage it is crystal clear and I am hoping that after sanding down (now that’s another story) I can get it back to the original appearance.
APOLOGIES as this will be a long post. If you have no intention of ever doing this you can stop reading NOW. But for anybody who wants to give it a try I thought it might help to document the process as I did it.
First off, a big thank you to the guy at Boat Owners Warehouse at Salisbury here in Brisbane (no connection, just a happy customer). He is experienced in using epoxy and spared the time to talk me though the process. Unfortunately they only had Epoxy in 5 litre containers in stock, but when I told him how much I wanted he decanted 500ml down for me into smaller containers. Great service!
PREPARATION:
As I had left a bit of a mess with the polyester resin I thoroughly cleaned the FB with Acetone several times to make sure that there were no contaminants on the FB. I didn’t want a re-occurrence of the delamination that I had with Polyester resin.
As I was going to do this as a “pour” and not brushing it on, I had to I mask off the FB. I should have taken more care with this as I creased the tape in a few places and this has resulted in the edges of the resin being noticeably uneven. I just used painter’s tape, so I am not sure if proper masking tape would have been better.
As the resin is self-leveling I used a spirit level to make sure that I would get an even layer on the FB. I had already cut a nut slot and attempted to fill the slot with an old plastic nut cover with the painters tape. Again I did a sub-standard job with the tape and that allowed the resin to flow into and around the taped nut and slot, essentially gluing it in place. D’oh!
MIXING THE EPOXY:
Because the resin and catalyst was decanted into non-standard tins I had no instructions to follow. Trying to remember what I had been told and my relentless internet searches I decided to mix for an arbitrary 5 minutes.
When you first pour the catalyst into the resin it looks almost like oil and water. The name of the game is to mix GENTLY. You want to avoid creating any air bubbles. You need to see that both compounds have combined completely. Looking very carefully into the mix you should not be able to see any “streaks” or “strings” of catalyst.
I mixed for 5 minutes and then let it stand for another 5 to allow the bubbles to dissipate. I am not sure if my theory worked or not, but as I had a “working” window of about 30 to 45 minutes I thought it was worth a try.
THE POUR:
Pretty straight forward. Pour gently so as to avoid the dreaded air bubbles. The resin is crystal clear and I was not too sure of the depth. I probably poured in too much, but as I intend to sand it back I thought that too much was better than not enough. If anyone is interested I used about 120ml of resin to do a 22 “fret” bass neck.
I was not too sure how long Epoxy takes to cure. There are so many variables that effect this that I decided to err on the cautious side and leave it for 5 days.
THE AIR BUBBLES!!!
The dreaded air bubbles. After the pour I noticed several bubbles a little smaller than pin head size. I had bought a small butane lighter (about $10) and just quickly waved it for a second or two about 120mm from the resin and the bubbles magically popped immediately. It’s important to keep the flame moving and not concentrate too much heat in one spot. I also noticed a few bubbles up against the masking tape and thought that using a naked flame there could lead to a disaster. So I used a tooth pick to maneuver them to the surface and just popped them.
What I didn’t notice, was the myriad of minuscule bubbles at the heel and nut ends of the FB. It’s hard to explain but as the ends of the board had tape around 3 sides it prevented light from penetrating into the resin. The bubbles became immediately apparent as soon as I removed the tape and the light highlighted the bubbles. In hindsight (what a wonderful thing) if I had waved the magic lighter at these ends I am sure the bubbles would have disappeared.
These bubbles are really tiny and may not be too noticeable in the finish, but I fear they may produce a “dimple” effect. If it is purely cosmetic and does not affect how the bass plays I will not worry about it.
SANDING:
Just a note of caution. When the masking tape is removed it leaves a meniscus (yes, it’s a real word) along the edge of the resin. This is razor sharp, and I have several cuts on my hands can attest to it. It’s so sharp that I didn’t even feel the cuts. None were very deep but it could so easily have been a lot more painful. You have been warned. My advice is to get rid of them (I just used a file) as soon as possible.
I intend to sand it to the standard PBG 12inch radius and after about 45 minutes with 80 grit paper I can see that those among you who hate sanding will really love this stuff. It’s quite hard, but it gums up the paper. So a dozen or so wipes with the paper and you have to get rid of the balled up resin with a steel brush. I have noticed that the paper gums up a lot quicker is you try to speed up the process by pressing hard. So long gentle strokes is the way to go.
Would I pour again instead of brushing on several coats? Jury is still out on that one. I will leave my decision until after the job is complete, but as I had made such a shocker when trying to radius the board the first time I really didn’t have a choice this time around.
Sorry for the long winded post but I hope it has helped somebody. I have probably left some things out so if some of it is not very clear just let me know.
Now for the Pics.
Pic #1 & 2 – The painter’s tape dam.
Pic #3 – The “glued” in dummy nut. Also the result of some uneven tape and some of those pesky bubbles.
Pic #1 & 2 – The FB level and ready for the pour. The playing cards were used to level the board. (The playing cards are a part of my tool box as I use them when I need a very thin shim. Hey, paper is made of wood and the cards won’t compress or deform)
Pic #3 – After the pour
Pic #1 – The thickness of the resin, you can also see the sharp edges of the meniscus
Pic #2 – Filing down the edges
Pic #3 – After about 45 minutes of sanding with 80 grit this is the result!!
nice tutorial cheers Rob. Wow that epoxy looks up to 5-6mm thick.
So when you sand with finer paper will it be transparent ?
I'm very interested in how you prepped and poured the epoxy. I am using some epoxy resin for a different project. A new outdoor bar I am covering the bar top with beer caps and want to fill all the gaps with clear epoxy resin.
I'll ask some more questions when I collect enough lids !
Now that was an excersise of patience :)
Will be very interested to see how it stands up to playing, it should be OK if you use flatties I guess..
Whoa. That's a whole lot more epoxy than I was expecting. Glad it turned out well, Rob.
Good point DB, yes Rob you must only use flatwounds.
Roundwounds will probably chew big holes in the epoxy resin
Bro, that is ridiculously cool....not saying I'd do it, but it's still firetrucking cool.
I anticipate that you will rough down to near finished sizes and then up the sand paper numbers until you wet and dry for a flat glassy finish?
Haha 10points for effort, good to see you got around it.
Thanks Warren, it will bit a little thinner by the time I have finished. I will be sanding through the grits to 2000 so I am hoping for a fairly nice finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by wokkaboy
In my research I found some great youtube tutes that might help you. Just search "pouring epoxy resin" there are heaps of them.
Yeah Phil, I have no idea how it will stand up to the rigors of playing. I have already bought some flats, and I only play bass at church once a month, so I should be OK. Although epoxy has become popular because its stronger than wood and supposedly stands up to rounds better than wood. But I am sure that not all epoxy's are created equal, so I have no idea what I've got.Quote:
Originally Posted by dingobass
Cheers guys
rob
Thanks FW. Spot on mate, I'll be going all the way to 2000 grit. Hopefully it will give me a nice finishQuote:
Originally Posted by FrankenWashie
Thanks Pabs. I wanted it fairly thick, firstly because I needed to fix the bad radius job I did originally, and secondly, not knowing how it will last I wanted to leave enough resin to be able to re-dress the FB a few times if I have to. It might be over-kill, time will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by pablopepper
Thanks Tony, If first you don't succeed, etc, etc. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tonyw
Cheers Guys
rob