That looks killer for a first attempt! Great stuff.
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That looks killer for a first attempt! Great stuff.
I remember someone posting that sometimes mop inlays break and are still used. Having read that I had a close look at my Ibanez headstock, and what did you think I found?…
Don’t feel bad about breaking the inlay and repairing it, it obviously happens to the best of us.
Found a crack?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMark
Six tuners?
Both correct!
This is a bad angle. On a different angle you don’t see it.
Haha toucheQuote:
Originally Posted by DarkMark
Cheers guys! I'm fairly happy with the inlay portion of the job, but we'll see how I do with the inlaying part of the job, that has been a bit of a pain so far.
Cheers! I'm definitely taking the broken sections in stride, it's all part of the learning process, and to be honest if it was perfect it probably wouldn't fit the overall aesthetic. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMark
The time has come to embed the inlays. First thing I did was lay everything back out on some painters masking tape.
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Then I covered the section of headstock I was inlaying with tape, and superglued my layout down to it.
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From there, simply cut around and remove the sections.
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I tried to go in deep enough that I could remove the entire setup from the neck and have a good enough "scratched" guide for carving, but it's not super easy to see what's going on to be honest.
I'll upload more images tomorrow. I had a bunch of competing demands today, so wasn't able to get much done on this. I'm up to 13 coats of poly on the body though.
EDIT: If you're wondering about the inlay placement, it's because I carved a "scallop" into the entire bottom section of the headstock. I'm aware the string trees will probably be right in the inlay. It's okay..
Looking good Ross.
I've never done any inlay, but your process looks logical and practical to me!
The plan of using the scalpels to transfer layout lines didn't work as well as I'd hoped. You can see them, but it's pretty tough to work with.
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I ended up using a mechanical pencil to draw in the outlines. I think that's going to give me better results.
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Working with scalpels isn't too hard, it's definitely more forgiving and less prone to making catastrophic mistakes. It's really slow going though. Just doing the "I" has taken some time and it's still not 100% correct. I've got a couple dremels sitting around, I might test out some engraving bits to see if I can freehand without too much problem. On scrap wood, of course.
Thanks! Hopefully this at least helps someone else avoid the same mistakes I'm making. Well, not really "mistakes" so much as not the best process/method choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
Welp, that seems to work. A bit of a mess up close, but have happily embedded the M. It broke again, of course, but that's okay. So the plan now is to complete the "routing" for the inlays and then CA glue them in. Then I'll pare off the excess and fill all the tiny chipouts and mistakes with maple wood filler.
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Maybe use a less brittle backing for the abalone, like a sheet of plastic (like model-making polystyrene sheet). You can get it thinner as well, so the inlay cut-out doesn't need to be so deep. The abalone/MOP/whatever you use needs to be reasonable thick, as it's hard to get it level with the surface, so you'll need to sand it down.
I always ended up sanding it too thin in places so I could see the backing, so I gave up and went to decals.
Heyo, that's a fantastic idea, I wish I'd have thought of it! The inlay material I'm using is Jarrah, so if it breaks I can easily glue it back together without it looking too obvious thanks to the breaks occuring across the grain. But yeah, adhering the material to something sturdier would be great.
As I'm hand carving the inlay route it's only pretty shallow anyway. Next time I do this I might use powertools. I played around on some scrap with the dremel and a tiny ball burr, and the results were decent for hogging out, but not so great for finer edges. I also slipped a couple of times and marred the edges. Probably a combination of scalpels and the dremel.
Another option I've been considering is colouring some 5-minute epoxy and filling the inlay if the jarrah doesn't work out. I would have to do a lot of prep work to get cleaner edges first though. But it's an option for next time.
I bought some very thin router bits that would fit the Dremel (meant for CNC engraving) with the intent of using them to do the fine detail inlay routing, but never got round to using them before I went over to decal-only. Here they are: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/produc...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Of course you'd also need something like the StewMac router base to go with the Dremel, as Dremel's own router bases aren't much good by all accounts.
Yeah I have the dremel router base and there's no way it would work on a headstock, not enough flat surface to work with. I have loads of bits collected over the years, but might check out some smaller router bits and the stewmac base, that sounds pretty good
Great job so far Ross. Back at the beginning of the thread when you were having burning issues and tear out it may not necessarily be something that you did, Tassie Oak/Vic Ash is renowned for that. I had the same issue on my tele thinline. The comfort contours were a good idea for weight relief as well I would expect.
Oh right, I did no know that. Definitely something to remember. I'm really loving the look of this wood with the paint and finish I've applied, so I'm considering doing a second one. I'm thinking about doing a complete "hand tools only" build, but I'm still missing some key tools. I'd want a router plane, spokeshave, brace and bits. If I went down that route at least I won't need to worry about tools burning and blowing out the wood!Quote:
Originally Posted by Woltz
It took a while but I successfully hand routed the cavities with scalpels. Overly successful in fact as you'll see. I glued them down with CA glue and clamped with a cork sanding block under the headstock. The CA didn't take successfully in a bunch of spots, so I had to run more in. I was hoping not to get any CA along the edges so I could fill the gaps properly, so this might mean more work in the future.
I have a backup plan if this all ends up looking awful.
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Everything is glued in now and my chisel is pretty sharp. I started paring away the top to level it all down. You can see how badly the hand routing came out. With way more practise and time I think this is entirely possible, but I'll never be doing it again. I've ordered a set of 0.6 - 1.5mm dremel end mill bits and a precision router base.
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Pared pretty flat here. Loads of gaps on the edges. Not really very happy with it to be honest, but I have a couple of contingency plans available.
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I've gap filled and washed the entire headstock with a very watered down cedartone wood putty to try and get some colour consistency with the gaps.
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There are some issues that will need to be addressed, I still need to sand flush and likely stain with the putty again to see how it looks.
The main contingency at this stage is to impress a small channel around the lettering to embed brass wire or thin sheet into.
At the end of the day I'm planning to paint the headstock, so it might not look too bad when all is said and done.
Welp, I may have stuffed up slightly. Yes the dark wood is a good contrast to the bright maple. But it's a crappy contrast to the paint which matches the body. I tried various combinations and strengths of the paint, including even sanding the inlay with a fret eraser, and no bueno. Me no gusta.
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So, I'm down to two options. The first thing I'll try is a brass wire outline for the lettering. If that doesn't work I might veneer the headstock.
Option three is to get/make another neck I suppose =) I was considering making one anyway, just so it could be a "complete" scratch build...
I'd suggest a veneer and inlay into the veneer. You could do the inlay with the veneer off the headstock (so you only waste a bit of veneer if it goes wrong) and then stick the inlaid veneer on the headstock. You've also got more control over the inlay depth as well, as it's the depth of the veneer, so you only need to worry about the outline. You could probably cut that out of the veneer with a scalpel. You'd have to cut small pieces out of veneer to fill in the middle of Os and As etc.
I had actually considered doing that, and I think it would work pretty well. I'd probably try and make a veneer from some leftover tassy oak from the body build. I'm going to try the brass wire route first, and might stain the inlay darker to see if that fixes things. The brass wire would fix a bunch of issues including the bad edge gaps and contrast/legibility problems.
Nice work mate. You've got some skills !!
Hi Jim! Welcome to the forum! And thanks for the kind words, maybe one day I'll have skill, but today I have only passion. Passion, and an unsettling habit of absolutely sending it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim De Bressac
After a significant amount of time spent in the Idiot Lab™ testing a bunch of different materials and methods, I concede defeat on the wire inlay front. The gauge of wire I was looking at for the right looking thickness was around 23 to 26 gauge, around the 0.5mm mark. I tried regular round wire and had some success, but getting it to stay flat was almost impossible.. Flat wire (around 0.6 x 4mm) seemed promising, but I couldn't get anything that was malleable enough to work on the tight corners. Flat silver wire would probably work, but I didn't want to fork out for something that I might not be able to get working.
In the end I decided to carve a small channel around the lettering with scalpels. I found that the round scalpel was the best for this, as you could roll it around corners follow curves easier. It looks awful up close.
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I bought the cheapest two part clear epoxy at the big green shed, I think it was about $2.50. I mixed it together with a drop of the same black craft paint I used on the body and slathered it on. After a while I pared it away with a super sharp chisel. I was testing on some scrap wood, but decided screw it, there's nothing else I can think to fix this inlay up so I may as well just put it down. Turns out I put wayyy too much paint in the mix. It screwed with the epoxy setting time by a huge amount, so it took a few hours to set off properly.
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Since the test seemed successful, I painstakingly carved out the rest of the channels and mixed a new batch, this time more epoxy and way less paint. I was worried there wasn't enough paint in there as the mix was still slightly translucent, but I laid it down anyway. I scraped the wet mix with a flat edge, and it came out great.
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Once it's completely dry I'll probably take to the whole headstock with a razor. I may need to do another epoxy mix as this sunk a bit, I probably should have left the excess on the channels and then sanded back later, but I didn't want it too thick. And it's super easy to do if I need to do it again.
I know it's not perfect, but it really helps the legibility of the logo. I should be able to hard wipe on some black/blue paint to the headstock and keep the legibility of the logo now. So... I think I saved it.
And the body is at 27 coats of wipe on poly. I'll finish tomorrow at 30, I think that will be the end of it, then I'll leave it hanging somewhere safe for 3-4 weeks before wet sanding. I'll probably start at 800 grit and see how that works. There's some trouble spots but thankfully mostly under the pickguard. I'm apprehensive about the edges and corners, but I'll go slow and see how it goes.
You can see an area on the horn that is a lot lighter. I did a not super hard 400 grit sand trying to fix some small problem spots at around 15 coats, and it went straight through to the wood there. Really not sure why, as the same pressure on the rest of the guitar didn't do that.. So that's a concern. But I left it since like I said, nobody will see that with the pickguard on.
Attachment 41343
I'm planning to paint the cavities with a flat black once the clear coat is cured, then hit them with a light brushed on coat of clear to seal them. I bought a tin of spray poly for the neck, so I'll be spraying that. Maybe. I'm not happy with how long it's taken to finish this body, not even including the hardening time.
All looking good and kudos for persevering with the inlay. No, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. The real test will be what it looks like with the paint on.
If you are going to foil screen the cavities, there's not a lot of point painting them. Could just save a bit of time. Or else use a graphite screening paint for the black. Or just go straight for a gloss black and do it matt + clear in one go!
Sand through is never normally logical. Somehow the finish is thinner there, or the wood surface just a bit more raised than the surrounding area, despite you putting the same amount of finish on or sanding the body flat. Both my GST-1 and Harley Benton JB builds have been plagued by sand-throughs, which along with a poor UK summer with lots of rain, has really slowed my builds down.
Your logo may not be perfect now, but I reckon you'll get it near there if you keep going the way you're going! Good work!
14-21 days is generally long enough with polyurethane, but there are always variables like coat thickness and environmental conditions to consider. The "sniff test" is a good standard.Quote:
I think that will be the end of it, then I'll leave it hanging somewhere safe for 3-4 weeks before wet sanding. I'll probably start at 800 grit and see how that works. There's some trouble spots but thankfully mostly under the pickguard. I'm apprehensive about the edges and corners, but I'll go slow and see how it goes.
IME, with hand-applied poly, you might be able to start with 1000 or 1200. You don't get orange peel like you can with spraying so it may not require much levelling to get a nice gloss.
As for the corners and edges, I recommend either just lightly touching them or not touching them at all (unless there is a significant defect that needs addressing).
It's the larger flat areas that reflect the the most light (ie: gloss) and when you do the final polishing and buffing, it should be enough to shine up the small radiused areas.
Those same areas always seem to have the thinnest layer of finish on them and are notorious for sand-through. When I spray my finishes, I always make passes with a focus on my edges and they can still be problematic.
Good point from Simon there, and one I was also going to comment on. I would add that regardless of the shielding method, it wouldn't hurt to seal the cavities with a few coats of shellac or poly before wet sanding. It just prevents any absorption of water and potential swelling of the wood. There shouldn't copious amounts of water getting in the cavities, but better safe than sorry IMO.Quote:
If you are going to foil screen the cavities, there's not a lot of point painting them.
And a good point from McCreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
I'm so used to spraying, where the cavities get coated in the finish, that I mentally exclude other methods of finish application, where it depends on whether you've run the finish into the cavities or not.
Guys, thanks for the comments. Here's to hoping the whole package looks good in the end.
I don't know why I blanked on shielding the cavities, but yeah, that needs to be done. I'll almost definitely be painting with graphite rather than using foil. I could buy some, but I've seen some videos about making your own... and I think you guys might have enough of an idea about how I like to do things...Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
Yeah, that sand through gave me the absolute sh*ts, I'd been so careful. I'm just happy it will be hidden. Anywhere else on the body and I'd have scraped the finish off and started again. Also it still kind of matches the aesthetic, so eeeeeeh.
Glad I'm not the only one though, definitely something to watch out for next time.
I'll definitely leave it 21 days as a minimum, I've come this far, I don't want to ruin it now. Sniff test might work but I have issues with "sniff" due to some serious sinus and allergy issues. I'm sure poly that isn't cured will get through the blockade though.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
I've got some bespoke orange peeling in a couple of spots around the inclusions, where I tried to push poly in to fill them better, plus some issues around the horn where I didn't realise I'd overshot the edge and forgot to wipe down the front last, so had a tiny amount run away from me. Yes, I somehow managed to make Wipe On Poly more problematic than I should have.
It also picked up a random ding in the front around 18-19 coats (I think the old guy accidentally hit it with something). So the very last coat will just be on the front and will have a tiny pool to fill whats left of that ding. So I'll need to scrape that back at least.
Sanding is gonna be interesting. Glad I didn't invest a lot (anything) into materials for the finish, but still aiming for the best results I can get.
Already planning the next one. Send help.
And yes, great point! I'll definitely hit up the cavities with a bit of poly on the last two coats to ensure they're sealed.
Somewhere in the early 20's I tried a pour on the top rather than bottle -> rag -> guitar, and managed to get some to run into the control cavity, so the bottom of that is fairly sealed already. Should be able to get shielding paint over the top though.
I put down the final coat of wipe on poly for the body. It's gonna need some finessing to get it to look okay after it cures, but I'm pretty happy for a first attempt. Hopefully no sanding through the clear coat...
Made some progress on the neck/headstock. Maybe some fiddly work and fine details to complete, but not sure if there's much value to add. In the end it will be what it will be. Headstock is painted up now, I went for a full matte black in the scallop, it should look pretty good with finish on it. I still want to scrape/clean off the inlay to brighten it up a bit.
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And some different angles of the scallop.
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I taped off the fretboard as I'll keep that the original blonde maple colour. I'm planning a spray can oil poly finish, that may add a slight tint but most likely not a lot. I gave the neck the same "rubbed back" black treatment as I did with the body. I want to tie things together and I think a fully blonde maple neck on the body would seem a bit jarring.
I realise some of you are screaming right now.
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Off to buy an IKEA portable wardrobe tent on the drive home tonight, so I can set it up as a "spray booth" for the neck finish.
Cabothane... how many coats for a neck?
Neck colour looks fine to me. Not even a slight wince here.
The maple is smoother and less absorbent than the body wood, so less sanding is required to get it flat, but I’d still put 4-6 coats on depending on the coat thickness, probably 6, especially as the neck has been stained. Any sand-through will leave a lighter patch which will be hard to fix in isolation, so it’s either sanding the whole neck down (I did that twice on the Hexacaster) and starting again, or touching up the clear coat and leaving the lighter patch.
With the Cabot's, I'd do 3 coats 10mins apart. Leave it a few days, very light sand then another 3 coats 10 mins apart. Then leave as long as you can before evaluating next move.
Thanks for not wincing! You'd make an excellent poker player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
I actually found this paint practically slid off the Tasmanian Oak body, to the point I had difficulty with consistent coverage because any additional paint would lubricate and reveal bare wood that refused to take paint again. With the maple I had to get aggressive with methylated spirits to rub the paint back after a few seconds of air drying.
I was thinking 6 coats minimum, but after all the work layering poly on the body it seems insane that only 6 coats of anything will work well. I guess that's the deal with spraying instead of wiping. I think I'll be happier to do more work on wet sanding a clear if it saves me weeks of hand application.
Back of the can says 6 hours between coats, but I'm gonna assume you've got a load of experience here and know what you're doing. I certainly like the idea of completing the application in two short sessions rather than dragging it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakersdozen
Sorry Ross, the old instructions used to be do one coat, leave 10 mins and then repeat twice. So it's a total of 3 coats in half an hour. Then leave for a few days. So I like to think of it as a session = 3 coats over 30 mins. Don't go too thick in each coat to avoid runs. You'll get the hang of it. There are a few in depth posts about the Cabot's schedule if you have a search around here.
Fantastic, thanks for that. I'll likely follow the instructions you've laid out here, sounds like it will work well. Cheers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakersdozen
Blue tape off and a quick touchup and cleanup, small amount of sanding. I think I like the contrast?
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I made a quick spinning hook setup from a broken satchel strap hook and some fence wire. The wire is bent in such a way that it "snaps" over the rail in the IKEA "booth". The strap hook swivels, allowing the piece to be easily spun around.
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I set up the IKEA spray booth, dog for scale.
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Annoyingly, my spray can of cabothane might have been dodgy. I've never used it before so I don't know. There was a red... mister? ...supressor? on the nozzle. I got exactly one nice light spray out of it before it absolutely refused to work again. It's a 1.5 hour round trip to the closest big green shed, so I wanted to make this work. I tried adjusting the little red guy to see if it was acting as some kind of switch, and of course it shot off the nozzle and out into the yard, never to be seen again.
Good news, the spray works. Bad news, it WORKS. I'm worried it's gone down way too thick. There's nothing that can't be fixed, but I'm starting to run out of time for this project.
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Was it a rectangular shape? If so it was probably a rotating nozzle, designed to give a fan-pattern rather then a circular cone pattern from a standard can. It rotates (I use pliers) to give a horizontal or vertical fan spray. Fan direction is at 90° to the main axis of the rectangle. So horizontal rectangle = vertical fan spray.
It probably just needed a pin to unclog the nozzle. (This is why they say to turn it upside down after use and press to use the propellant to blow any residue from the nozzle).
If you think there's too much on, then wait a day before spraying some more to give it extra time to dry.
You can always try using a nozzle from another spray can (use on cardboard first to avoid any old paint being transferred to the neck).