Change rags after every coat to avoid build up of crud getting transferred to the next coat.
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Change rags after every coat to avoid build up of crud getting transferred to the next coat.
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Oh wow really - thanks. That’s going to be a fair few rags. I’m going to need to buy a few new T-shirt’s!Quote:
Originally Posted by wazkelly
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That's shaping up nicely! The burst is a whole other level with the clear on.
The sides may have needed a bit more grain filler but end grain and side grain can be tricky, I don't think there's any going back now. Hopefully it will smooth out with subsequent coats and sanding.
My only other advice is you might want to re-evaluate your hanging system. That wire of wire looks a bit precarious. I'd hate to read a post about how all your hard work slipped off and crashed to the concrete floor!
It could be the angle of the photo, but it looks like the short part of the "L" is sloping away from the body.
Thanks Mc - yeah I think it’s progressing well, and you’re right there’s no turning back now.
No doubt I’ll be able to see areas that I can improve as I go through the process - but I can learn for the next one.
Don’t worry - I’m super paranoid about it crashing down off the hook - it’s definitely pointing upwards.
Thank you so much for all your help and advice!
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I'm eight coats in now and still I'm pleased with how it's building. There's no sign of any grain texture in the surface but I'm getting a few lumps and bumps.
Bad news is with my eagerness to flatten it out between each coat I've gone through some of the black at the edges, so it looks a little light in places :(
Something like this was bound to happen so I'm looking at it as part of the learning process. I'm going to keep going and make all the mistakes rather now than starting again. If I feel the need, I’ll refinish using everything I've learnt. But more than likely I'll want to keep it this way as a reminder of the journey #sentimentalfool. Anyway, it’s given it a kind of relic look.
I don’t really have an idea about how glossy is glossy enough. I’ve seen some cool looking sheeny guitars (highway one strat) and some beautiful glassy gloss guitars (anything PRS). Right now, after eight coats without any finish sanding/polishing, I’d call it a “decent sheen”. I quite like the thinness of it.
I’m thinking the next coat I’ll apply with a sanding pad to try to remove some of the lumps, rather than dry sanding before coating. I guess I need enough coats to be able to wet sand and buff without going through the poly? How will I know when I have enough coats?
In other news I think I’m getting use the fumes…. beepbeep
This is why don't do any sanding until after 6-8 coats and primarily very light spot sanding (like lump removal).Quote:
Bad news is with my eagerness to flatten it out between each coat I've gone through some of the black at the edges, so it looks a little light in places
As to gloss level, that's entirely up to you. No right or wrong there. However, if a high gloss is your goal, many many more coats will be required. 25+. Some go up to 50... depends on your level of patience as well as level of gloss you're after.
FWIW, I have never wet sanded below 24 coats (with either wipe-on poly or tru oil). Some do the "wet sanding with poly or tru oil" method during the finishing process, but I have only done it as a means of grain filling. There there have definitely been some nice looking finishes achieved that way.
As we know, many paths to the same destination...
Agree with McCreed on needing minimum 6-8 coats before any sanding. Usually each additional coat can cover areas that didn't look so good and these tend to even out after several applications.
50 mm x 50 mm square of T shirt material is generally as big as you need to use, so unless you are a small person, one T shirt should do plenty of guitars.
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Thanks guys - yeah I realised it was too early to sand soon as I'd noticed it. So I haven't been back with the sand paper since. Given what you've said I'll just keep going and hope that it evens out.
I saw a vid that says you should wipe off the excess - I thought this might be the cause of the lumps. But I'm having trouble doing that before it's too dry and leaves drag marks. I end up putting more back on to fix it.
Of course I'm refining my process with each coat - but putting just a smidge on the rag is enough to easily cover the top. I'm using the excess to the cover sides. I only have to go to the back to the pot cover the back and then it's really easy to overload the rag and end up with runs or drags when I hang it up.
After your last post I took the scissors to my rags and chopped them down to about that - I think have plenty to see me through.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazkelly
I'll post some pics later today of the progress.
One thing that struck me - I should be poly'ing at least five bodies at a time - it would be way more efficient! But I'm not sure I can plan my builds that far ahead.
Forget about that if your just dipping your rag in or applying poly/tru oil to the rag. Applying it this way you should never get "excess".Quote:
I saw a vid that says you should wipe off the excess - I thought this might be the cause of the lumps. But I'm having trouble doing that before it's too dry and leaves drag marks. I end up putting more back on to fix it.
However, if the poly is drying before you can even touch it up, I'd suggest you're not wetting the rag/pad enough.
The majority of times I hear the "wipe off the excess" phrase used is by guys that are putting way too much on in the first place.
These guys that slather it on like that are doing it wrong IMO.
The way I make my "pad" for applicating is this: (I have expalined this here before, and I learnt if from others before me)
Start with a clean piece of cotton (t-shirt or similar - I only use white but that's up to you) cut it into a 125±mm square.
Fold 2 cut edges into the middle.
Fold the other two cut edges into the middle of that (now it's back to a smaller square).
Fold at the middle where all the cut edges meet.
Now your left with a rectangle.
Fold the two short ends of that triangle together.
Now you have small square(-ish) pad with no cut edges exposed. This will eliminate any frayed cotton from the cut fabric making its way into your finish.
Hold the pad at the top where all the folded edges come together and use the bottom (single folded) edge like the bristles of a paint brush. There is enough material in the pad to hold enough poly/tru oil so you can work it without excess or too little.
I also work it in straight lines (like painting) but of course guitars are not all straight lines, so common sense also needs applying. The point is, not a circular motion.
The rag folding thing may sound convoluted, but it's very simple.
Of course you can cut your initial square larger or smaller if you want, but the 125mm (5") is what works for me.
Thanks Mc, just added the next coat using your "pad" approach and it is much better.
I'll post pics tonight before today's final coat.
Here's the current state just before coat 10 went on:
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Hopefully you can see in the close up images the lumpiness. On the sides it seems there are small particles lodged in. I'm itching to sand these out as it feels like I'm adding more layers over the bits and pieces and it will be hard to get them out.
It feels like I'm missing something as I thought the idea was it supposed to dry quickly enough to avoid dust sticking?
I can see some of the debris is definitely cloth fibres, and some of the larger lumps look like chunks of dried poly (possibly picked up from the container you're getting the poly out of - eg: the crusty stuff that builds up on the edge of a jar or can). I can't say for sure without being there.
I think you should be able to level that with some sanding now that you're getting a bit build up. I would try maybe some 600 dry, and use a block not just holding the paper in your hand. Light pressure.
The key will be getting nice clean subsequent coats once you have the current coats levelled.
The runs you have around the neck pickup cavity can be removed using the strip sanding technique rather than full block sanding.
Thanks Mc, I went over it very lightly with 800 and then added another coat.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
I’ve been mixing the poly in a new clean plastic paint mixing cup with each of the batches I’ve made so far. It seems clean...
I noticed the debris seemed worse on one side. The bottom edge was quite clean so I wondered if the dust was coming in from the open door. I’ve been leaving the door open to let the air circulate and hopefully dry it more quickly and get more of the fumes out of the shed.
This time I hung up a “curtain” between the body and door to try and minimise the incoming dust. I also wonder if this an indication that I’m applying it too thickly.
Let’s see how this one goes...
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If you're using a fresh container, then I can't say with any certainty what the source of the lumps are. It was only specualtion on my part.
The open door could be a contributing factor. FWIW, I don't find the fumes from poly or turps to be overbearing. I don't even wear a mask. But maybe that's why I have drain bamage...
If you you're uncomfortable with the fumes, you can buy "low odour" turps/white spirit. I'ved use both and have not found a significant difference in the performance.
The runs I noted earlier, and some of the streaking near the bottom edge would suggest too much poly being applied.Quote:
I also wonder if this an indication that I’m applying it too thickly.
I really appreciate all the advice Mcc - it's all been really useful.
I think I'm starting to climb the curve on this one. My last two coats have been a lot cleaner I think mainly due to putting a lot less on. The sanding has helped although I think there's a bit more todo - but I'll leave it another five or so coats.
I've changed my technique a little to control how much is going on the rag. I'm using those spray paint mixing cups, which I guess are maybe 2/3 pint so they are quite deep compared to the opening. So getting a controlled amount of poly on the rag was quite hard. So now my approach is to fold the rag as you suggested an then hold against the side of the cup. Then I can tip the poly up the side of the cup and onto the rag rather than dipping it into the poly.
A margarine tub with a lid would better so I'm going to switch to those for the next batch. I got about 8 coats out of the first. The temps here are quite cool (~10C) which seems to be keeping it okay.
Yeah I'm confused about the fumes - Of all my YT vids watching I don't see anyone apply poly with a mask. But it's definitely effecting me. I got a cheapo painters Darth Vader mask yesterday and it's much better when wearing that. I could try changing to a different white spirit but I'm conscious of changing too much mid job.
There's so many different skills to learn when building a guitar for the first time. It's like one guy trying to build a house - he's got to be a bricky, a chippy, a spark... If I can make a guitar that's playable and doesn't look like it was finished by a five year old using a shotgun then I'll be very happy!
Oh... and the Gotoh bridge arrived yesterday - it's definitely a lot more refined than the kit bridge. Everything lines up apart from the two holes at the front - but I'm confident I can make it work.
Good stuff!
Ohhh baby...
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Experimenting with logo ideas - zoning in I think...
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ASH are the first initials of my nearest and dearest. It’s not supposed to be about the wood - just a happy coincidence.
First coat of Tru-Oil on the neck:
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Are you not diong the fretboard, or is is just not showing well in the photo?
Yes - fret board is done too - I applied a really light coat to start with.
That's good. I read about people not clear coating maple fretboards and just waxing it or something... it worries me every time :confused:.
34 coats... and it's going... okay - the back is looking better than the top. I had a couple of "dirty" coats on the top that I've not been able to recover from. In certain lights you can see runs where I've clearly put it on too thickly. I've lightly sanded every five or so coats with either P800 or a synthetic sanding pad. The pad seems to scuff it up removing any debris whilst the P800 is better at removing the runs.
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I'm hoping the runs are going to be hard to see after the final buff and polish. If not then the headstock my say "built in 2021" on the front and "refinished in 2022" on the back.
I should get to 50 coats before the weekend - how long should I leave it before finish sanding and buffing? Is there any reason to wet sand? Or can I go dry? I'm concerned about swelling...
I've also been looking at Menzerna buffing compounds to use with my RO sander.
Meanwhile in necksville - I've put four coats of truoil over the whole neck. And so far, I'm pleased with the outcome. It feels smooth and it has a nice colour to it. Next I'll add the decals and build up the oil a little more on the headstock to add a bit more a sheen.
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Hey Groovyman.
re: runs - I thought I posted this in your thread, but it was a another members recent thread. Anyway, check out post #31 HERE.
I describe a couple of methods for dealing with drips/runs etc you may find useful.
With poly, I give it a minimum of 10 days, 14+ if you can stand it.Quote:
I should get to 50 coats before the weekend - how long should I leave it before finish sanding and buffing? Is there any reason to wet sand? Or can I go dry? I'm concerned about swelling...
The old school way of checking the level of cure, is by putting your nose right up to the timber and giving a sniff. If you can smell any solvent, it not's fully gassed off. However IME, 10-14 days has been fine with poly, and 3-4 weeks (or more!) with lacquer. With either, longer is always better.
Wet sanding will be required if your going for a high gloss finish. Dry sanding is only going make it look quasi-satin.
The way to think about the difference is, wet sanding has a greater polishing effect and dry is creating micro-scratches.
The whole wet sand before drilling holes or after is a subject for debate that has been knocked around here a lot. There are reasonable arguments on both sides, so it comes down to personal preference. Some times you don't get a choice if the body has pre-drilled holes, it just has to be dealt with. Since your build has some but not all holes drilled you can get the whole experience and compare!
I tend to be in the drill before camp, but that aside, what I would suggest in your case, is leave your pickguard holes etc undrilled until after you've levelled and polished. Hand-applied poly is generally more forgiving to a drill bit than lacquers IMO.
Now for the existing holes and cavities:
(after last coat and before wet sanding)
1) Plug any existing holes with a small amount of bee's wax (you don't need to jam pack the entire depth, just enough to "cap" the hole).
2) Apply a few coats of shellac (or wipe-on poly) to the inside of the cavities. Just enough to seal & waterproof the walls & floor. This also provides a better surface for shielding tape to adhere to IMO (if you're planning to do that).
An added benefit to the bee's wax is it works as a lubricant for the screws when you turn them in. Any excess wax that may smear on the finish while filling the holes or after turning in a screw can be safely wiped off with a small amount of naptha on a rag.
Hope this helps...
Thanks Mc - that's really helpful. I'll have another go at the imperfections. They're not drippy so much, more patches where it seems like the finish moved or sagged as it hardened. Either that or missed an area and I have a "curb" between layers. It's quite hard to get a good picture of the effect. If you look straight on you can't see it. It's only visible if you look at a shallow angle.
Thanks for the tips on protecting against swelling - I got some bee's wax for applying to screws but I didn't know I can also use it to cap the holes. The only holes I have are for the ferrules and the neck screws. Polying the body cavities hadn't occurred to me - seems obvious! I assume I don't touch the neck pocket?
But I'm really pleased with the finish on the neck - it feels lovely this morning now that the TO has dried off a bit more.
Oh and congrats Mc on reaching 2K posts! I'm ready to bow down to our new Overlord :)
Ha! I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out!Quote:
Oh and congrats Mc on reaching 2K posts! I'm ready to bow down to our new Overlord
It's amazing what can be accomplished spruiking a heap of BS can get you! :o
It's up to you whether you do the neck pocket. Personally I would because you'll only be applying enough to seal it, not building up like you would on the exterior areas. It won't be enough to effect the fit of the heel.Quote:
Polying the body cavities hadn't occurred to me - seems obvious! I assume I don't touch the neck pocket?
I'm of the mind that the more timber that is sealed, the less it may be effected by moisture. Environmental or otherwise. This is one of the reasons guitar builders apply finish to necks. Protection.
When I spray a body, I allow the paint to go into the cavities, and I shellac the neck pocket before spraying as well since my spraying jig is fixed into the pocket with very little paint getting into it, so I seal it. That's just me though.
Ah okay - Ive been trying really hard to leave the neck pocket well alone. But what you suggest makes sense.
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Here’s an example of the finish defect. As you can it’s quite hard to capture in a photo but it’s definitely there. I’m wondering if it has something to do with my mix going stale?
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But I also did this:
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I’m quite pleased with how this turned out [emoji1303]
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It could be from a batch thickening up if it's been mixed for a while, or may be just too much applied at once. Hard to say for sure.Quote:
Here’s an example of the finish defect. As you can it’s quite hard to capture in a photo but it’s definitely there. I’m wondering if it has something to do with my mix going stale?
However that is the kind of defect that the strip sanding technique I mentioned is perfect for.
If you use a nice thin strip, you can work just the edges of that mark. It shouldn't take much, maybe just a couple of pulls. If you try to remove the whole mark by block sanding, you can end up creating a low spot.
Decal looks great!
Cool thanks - I’ll give it a go in the morning. Maybe mix a new batch too.
What about air temps? It’s barely above 10DegC these days and I’m doing four coats a day with 3-4 hrs between - I wonder if the cool air means I should be leaving it longer between coats.
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10° is getting pretty cool. 18-25 is optimal range, but I would think 3-4 hours between coats should be ok. However I've never used any finish in those kind of temps so I have nothing to gauge it by.Quote:
What about air temps? It’s barely above 10DegC these days and I’m doing four coats a day with 3-4 hrs between - I wonder if the cool air means I should be leaving it longer between coats.
In "winter" here, we might get 6° overnight, but can warm up to 19-20 by 10:00!
In optimal conditions, hand-applying poly or Tru Oil, I can also get 4 (sometimes 5) coats per day on but I only leave it for 1.25-1.5 hours in between.
Yep, I'm only doing 3-4 coats/day of homebrew poly, and we're averaging well over 25 (except for the past two days).
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52 coats of wipe on poly - let’s hope it dries and I haven’t created a sticky mess
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Given the cool temps you mentioned earlier, I'd give it at least 14 days, and if you can bring it in to somewhere warm while it's drying, it would be better than hanging in a cold garage/shed. Conversely, you don't want it too hot either. Baking it won't help!Quote:
52 coats of wipe on poly - let’s hope it dries and I haven’t created a sticky mess
Looks like you got it a lot smoother than previous photos. Good work.
Thanks Mc - the photos make it look better than it is. There’s still a few rough areas. I tried one sand and two more coats to try and even it out. But it is what it is. I have to move on at some point.
I’ve got hanging in heated a conservatory. Generally it doesn’t get too cold but warms up quickly when the sun’s out. The forecast this week is looking quite sunny so I’m guess it might get into 25-30C.
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Oh and I also added 2/3 coats to the cavities and pocket. I’m hoping this is enough to seal and water proof?
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Should be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovyman32
It's not like you'll be using a huge volume of water that's going to fill the cavities during the wet sanding. It's just protection from any that may make its way into them. I always have a dry towel nearby and soak it up as I go when some pools in a cavity.
You need to wipe down the whole thing periodically to check your progress anyway. Nothing should have water standing on it for any length of time really.
Condensation is always a risk when temps get down to 10°C or so, and small water droplets can mar the final finish. The good thing about lower temps is that you're less liable to get the surface layer drying over first and trapping wet poly behind it. But really this should be done above 14°C as a minimum to remove any condensation risk. Air movement is as useful as heat in helping the finish to dry, so a low speed fan gently blowing on the guitar can help a lot, as it moves any solvent-laden air away from the surface.
Well, it's been hanging for two weeks now...
When I put face on it there's a very slight hint of a poly smell.
Is it ready?
If if still smells, the theory is is needs to wait a bit longer until it stops.
However, you could start the sanding down process. That will increase the surface area of the poly so allow any remaining solvent to escape more easily. I'd hold off on the polishing until the smell goes, or another week has passed, whichever comes first.