That place's cool too, I feel the GAS, I feel it so strong! hahahaha
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That place's cool too, I feel the GAS, I feel it so strong! hahahaha
Right. the weather warmed up and it's eventually stopped raining long enough to work outside again. But I almost wished I hadn't.
Over the past 8 months the guitar body has been inside sitting next to a warm radiator. I'm not sure if it was that that caused the problem or some reaction of the paint, but when I had a close look at it as I started to finish off scraping the binding, I found that it had reliced itself. All the paint (except the very thin centre sections that were just the clear amber over the yellow stain) had creased up forming ridges along the grain lines. At first I thought it was simply cracking, which I could live with, but a closer inspection showed the lines to be ridges.
I'd been hand-painting round the edges in an attempt to tidy up all my binding scraping errors, and needed to sand some of this down to see where I was, but as I sanded, the high ridges got sanded off and exposed the yellow underneath. So I then sanded some more of the body to see what had happened and ended up giving it all a wet sand, leaving loads of very visible lines.
Here's the top:
Attachment 19817
The upper shoulder where youi can see that even the sides went all ridged:
Attachment 19818
Around the upper F-hole:
Attachment 19819
And the back:
Attachment 19820
For comparison here's the top after re-spraying last year when I thought it was looking fantastic.
Attachment 19822
I'm really not sure what to do now. I can't leave it as it is but the top won't take another sanding down without going through the veneer. I'm finding it hard to get any motivation to do anything at all to it. If I sand it all down again then it's going to have to be finished in a solid colour, and I don't really want a solid-coloured guitar.
I'm really tempted to just throw it away.
thats a bummer Simon it was looking great, looks to me either a reaction between the stain and the clear with a fair bit of shrink back what did you use for grain filler ? going to be a prick to get it right if it was me id get hair dryer and razor blade to take the old stuff off with out using a lot off sanding and go again (i said use hair dryer as its not as hot as a heat gun) bit of a bummer but its quite fixable. your pretty clued up Simon its a to good of a kit to toss out
if there is someone who could fix it, its you
Man Simon I hate to see that. That burst was spot on .. I have no experience but could you grain fill over the cracked finish with something and lightly sand back flat and reapply the color. Again I have no clue just thinking out loud. Or you could go for an aged relic type look because the color is still awesome. Anyways good luck and phrozin is right if anyone can fix it you can..
Dang dude, that sucks. Can you just lightly ghost some colour back over the top?
edit I just blew those photos up, that really has affected the entire surface hasn't it?
Geez Simon, what a shame, that burst you have done is awesome. I think Phrozin could be onto some thing with his method. Don't toss it you'll come up with a fix
That's such a shame Simon. I initially thought they were two completely different guitars.
Sad to see mate, it was looking great.
What about a weak solvent on a wadded cloth? Rubbing from the centre outwards?
A few things may happen:
it softens the main colors enough to reapply them
It blends in the blemishes to make them less noticeable , either fixing it or facilitating touch ups
It removes what you have enough to do it again...
You could mist over a darker red/brown hopefully blending it in more...
If you are at the point you feel like giving up, then why not experiment and either learn from it or hopefully fix it the way you want?You have helped a lot of people here mate, time to put that brain to work - you can fix this
That might be a good option Stan, Ceridwen ain out one for the databankQuote:
Originally Posted by stan
Thanks chaps for your kind words and support. I needed that.
The finish didn't 'crack' or pull back, but was raised into small ridges - think like geological strata where the ground had been pushed up into a hill by pressure from either side. When I gave the ridges a light sand, it was like cutting the top of the hill off and exposing the underlying strata, but in this case it was the underlying colour which must have also been pushed up.
I'll give the solvent idea a go first (though probably more to remove the top colours to reveal the yellow than to try and re-blend the colours). If that doesn't work or is going to take for ever, then I'll try the heat+scrape method and see where I get. I can always spray the sides a dark tobacco colour again, but the 'burst will need to be re-done completely as I think misting over the existing finish won't hide the yellow grain lines in the red and brown areas. They might become darker but so will the top colours.
oh man , I really feel for you :(
Well an hour with the solvent and gloves and vapour mask sitting in the sun and getting rather warm has certainly cleared most of the lacquer off the top leaving just the tinted clear on the body with about 15mm of dark round the edge, which I could probably leave alone. The back had a lot smaller central yellow area - which I would have liked to have redone as well, but now I can do it. But I think I need more sanding work on the dark bits to reduce its thickness otherwise it will take for ever trying to do it all with thinners. If you use too much, it just makes a sticky mess that's hard to remove, so you need just a little bit of it at a time.
So once the remaining thinner vapours have evaporated, I'll go back to some sanding before the thinners. I'll just sand the sides as they only had the tobacco lacquer and there's no 'burst on those.
Good news Simon I'm glad to see things starting to work out.. I knew you were going to get this problem fixed.. and still end up looking great.
Wow Simon, that is a sad setback. But I know that you will find a solution to finish this beautiful guitar.
Simply devastating Simon I feel your pain. Sounds like the solvent may do the trick.
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That's sad Simon I too feel your pain, sometimes these things fight back like you wouldn't believe.
My first Tele, the PBH-4 and now the Tuff Dog have fought like hell against getting the finish I wanted on the body, only The Count STA-1 was compliant with my wishes.
What doesn't kill us makes us stronger and I'm sure you'll find a way to see this through.
We all have virtual ears for you to bitch to and virtual shoulders to cry on so keep on keeping on and you'll get there in the end
ahhhhh bugger :(
But what everyone else has said - you'll end up beating it into submission and it will look brilliant when you do!
Cry worthy Simon. I've been there too
good you sort of got it i would of used hair dryer and a blade it would have only taken the clear off as the clear and stain are not comparable and don't bind together i use that method most of the time it will peal off like a banana peal, glad you sort of got but i wouldn't recommend that method as has the potential to make a hell of a mess with out repair what you had happen is called shrink back i could sit down and explain how and why it happens but it would take me an hour as my typing speed is 2 words every 10 min lol
glad you are moving forward with this, hopefully a good save on the way
The clear is actually really hard and a lot more resistant to the thinners than the coloured lacquers. The stain I used was a water based one from a luthier supplier, so I don't see it being particularly reactive with the lacquer.
I'm getting there with the lacquer removal. Generally sanding most of it now.
I'll look up 'shrink back', Phrozin, and see if I can find anything that makes sense to me.
If it had all happened after I'd put the guitar together, I wouldn't have minded so much, but it would have been impossible to clear coat and flatten without an excessive thickness of clear coat on it.
Hi Simon, hope like everyone else you get the result your after. Given all the great input you give to others im sure you can.
just a theory, but i wonder the nitro has 'stress cracked'? its something that apparently happens to nitro lacquer as the timber adjusts to temp and humidity under the coating. here is a reference from one of my companies data sheets-
{Note: Care should be taken not to apply excessive builds in one application, otherwise surface
defects may occur.
Warning: Excessive builds on timber can lead to stress-cracking as the timber adjusts to its new
conditions of temperature and moisture content. The recommended maximum total build is 150
microns (dry film) for the total system. }
cleaning as you have been with thinner could help and more thin coats may also 'melt' the successive coatings to an improved result.
I'll ask the chemists at work and show pics to get their thoughts
best of luck
regards
guv
Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of the finish before I started sanding. But it was more a ridged puckering than cracking. I did have one nitro-finished guitar that I left in an unheated house for a week - a week the temperature dropped severely - and came back to find the whole surface had cracked/crazed all over, requiring a complete refinish.
I think it must be down to sitting right next to a radiator that did it. It was fine for the first three months or so, then I had to tidy up and it got put into a less than ideal location.
There once was an ugly duckling...
Attachment 19913
Getting there. Weather isn't conducive to working outside at the moment. Heavy rain all morning and/or very strong winds. Occasional sunny periods but then rain again.
I'm off on holiday next week, so I won't start any repainting until I come back. But I should finish getting it stripped down before I go.
Oh my.... It looks as if it has been used to light up the bonfire! I see tears coming down...
Oh my goodness... well I am sure you will remember this build for a long time and you are better than me because I probably would have chalked that one up to a learning experience and gave up, but you will make it shine I'm sure.. have fun on holiday..
yeah Simon...ive got tears reading through this thread and finally seeing your last picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kick
mate, there is always the solid colour option. dont quit. as all of the other dudes have noted before me - youre one of our most knowledgeable dudes here.
and a holiday will probably help clear your head and give you the space you need to attack it when you get back.
What a shame you don't want a relic-ed guitar (understandably). It looks like a 50 year old guitar that has been through the wars.
This time I will mask the binding, and I'll have more than enough time to get the spraying done and finished. Onwards and upwards!
Well, we had funny weather this week, so I didn't get that much more paint off, so still a little bit to do when I'm back from holiday, but then it should be full steam ahead on the re-re-spray.
I'm off early tomorrow (Saturday) morning for a weeks sailing on the Norfolk Broads - a connected series of rivers and man-made (through peat-digging in the iron-age) lakes in Norfolk. Weather is forecast to be reasonable (at least it shouldn't rain). Hiring one of these:
Attachment 19954
It's an all-wooden boat, originally built in the 1930s (though probably mostly replaced over time through wear and damage). No motor, just paraffin lamps for lighting, but it does have a gas stove. They sail like a dream, and it's far more like sailing a big, stable dinghy than a sea-going yacht. When there's no wind, or you need to manoeuvre in a tight space, you push yourself along with a long wooden pole called a 'quant'. Almost everywhere on the Broads, the water's not more than a few feet deep, though there are some parts that have been dredged deeper in the middle to allow small ocean-going ships to travel up to Norwich from Great Yarmouth. But we won't be going on that bit.
See you all again in about 8 days time and have fun. I know I will!
Enjoy it Simon, long time since I was there....
Have fun Simon! The weather will be good so enjoy the boattrip :)
Well, had a great week's sailing - strong winds and sunshine. Then came back home to blistering heat (for the UK - but was measuring around 36°C in the shade in the back garden with extra radiated heat form the house) and no wind, so as AC is still a rarity in domestic situations have been doing almost nothing since except trying to keep cool. Weather has calmed down a bit now, but I'm still feeling very lethargic and need a kick to get going again.
Welcome back on deck mate. Stay cool in that heatwave.
Welcome back Simon! It has been hot overhere as well and our AC has run for many hours.
I guess you have al lot to catch up here ;)
Indeed. I don't know where to start!
Good to see you back hope you had a great time.. can't wait to see the finish corrected and shining...
That boat looked like a lot of fun. I see us Queenslanders will probably be back up to 36 soon enough...
Well I've finished sanding all the coloured lacquer off the body. Had builders working on laying a paved drive all this week, making a lot of noise and dust (and now its gone rainy) so haven't done much else except order some pin-striping masking tape for the binding (after my previous attempt at scraping hardened lacquer off I can't afford to have problems this time), and hopefully that should come tomorrow. Then it's on with the spraying, Hurrah!
Good to see the legend back at it..