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OK, makes sense. Thanks!
I haven't really settled on a stain yet except for "dark", so I'm using ebony timbermate to make sure it still stands out under whatever I end up going with. I was thinking something about like Wudtone Dark Tease, then I thought maybe it'd be cool if it was a little more towards the colour of the fretboard, so I sent DB an email about a week ago asking about a rosewood-ish custom Dingotone colour but haven't heard back.
Hi H, I had a quick chat to DB and he said the PBG email has been down for a bit. Once you make up your mind on the stain colour may be best to PM Dingobass with your choice. I think either colour will look excellent. Andy40's TLA-1 was done in rosewood stain, the latest September GOTM entry
Oh wow, that's pretty much the exact colour I'm after!
I'll PM him soon. Thanks!
G'day H, be careful with the amount of moisture you introduce. That first wipe is a good thing to do as you can now knock down those stubborn dominant fibres.
On my Ash J Bass I used a combination of Colour Tone Cherry Red & a Deep Red Fountain Pen Ink and there must have been a high moisture content which opened up the grain pores even after they were sealed by using ebony timber mate. Took forever trying to level out by applying more top coats and in the end decided it looked better still showing some of the grain definition rather than keep chasing the look of being encased in a glassy plastic finish.
Reckon I might have gone a bit overboard on the timbermate. It was trickier to mix and apply nicely than I thought it would be.
How long until it's sandable? 24 hours? If I start tomorrow I might get finished by the end of the year...
http://i.imgur.com/lWJUsAX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Uz8lqOA.jpg
Hey H, no you haven't gone overboard with Timbermate the idea is to cover the surface entirely. You will know when it's dry it changes to a lighter colour, looks half dry in the photo.
Give it 3-4 hours to be on the safe side and you should be able to sand it off. Good idea with the toothpicks to blocks some of the drill holes. You will have to apply Timbermate to the back as well.
Don't ever worry about the time it takes, the finish is the most important part of the build so take your time and you will have a better finished axe at the end of the build.
looks like you've done it perfectly H
Thanks guys. It was demoralising to see thick black stuff covering the body, but I'm happy to hear I did it properly.
The timbermate sanded off relatively easily. Definitely easier than sanding the bare wood. This stuff is basically magic and I'm really glad I heard about it!
http://i.imgur.com/bHhuMNo.jpg
Now that I see it with the grain popped, I'm thinking of maybe a lighter stain (Nullarbor Ochre?) to make it really stand out. Also considering leaving the pickguard on if I do that to get a contrast with the lighter body colour.
The nippers I ordered arrived today, so I'll think about it some more while I work on the neck. Lots more sanding to do before I have to decide anyway.
e: Back and sides are done too. Any advice on getting the end grain to darken a bit less? Sand more? I noticed the same thing on my tele - the heel and especially the inner curves at the front stained a bit darker than the rest.
looks great H well done.Timbermate is magic stuff hey how it transforms the grain. I'd leave your pickguard colour choice until you get some stain on. Don't think it matters what colour you choose.
The end grain will naturally be darker so only way to even up the colour is to stain the end grain less than rest of the body.
Hi H,
bit of extra info to help you make your mind up.
1. If the timbermate is to dark still, I can see you can sand that back a bit more. It might lighten up the areas outside the grain and keep the ebony timbermate mainly within the grain rings;
2. The Rosewood DT only goes really dark the more coats you put on. The first coat is much lighter than the last stain coat. PS I used Neutral Timbermate not ebony. I can't comment on NO but I think Wokks has used it.
Thank you!
Andy, I'm intending to sand back a bit more, but will probably allow the timbermate to keep darkening the non-grain parts a little. Instead of planning this one out like I did the Tele I'm trying to let myself be guided a bit by how it progresses, if that makes sense. Maybe a step towards getting a bit more creative with this stuff.
I'm leaning pretty hard towards the Nullarbor Ochre after looking through previous GOTM threads last night.
Fuzzbeard's STA-1 and this tele (I'm sorry, I can't remember who built it) are both in NO have a pretty nice colour that I think will be cool with black grain, and I'm pretty sure both are ash bodies.
http://i.imgur.com/fPQISs1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xf0vabS.jpg
Which brings me to another question. If (it's a big if) I was going to try to find an ash veneer for the headstock, when do I attach that? Before shaping the head? After? Is there anything else to consider besides "glue, clamp, wait, sand"?
Great job with the ebony timber mate.
As others have said just sand a bit more to lighten up any parts that are too dark. With the end grain, it is just part of the look and character with using Ash and really stands out once you add some finish. Wouldn't worry about it too much as both front and rear faces are what most people will see.
Not sure there are too many suppliers of Ash veneer.....you can always google to find out.
Depending on what colour you intend doing on the back of neck or if leaving clear/natural that might dictate how you do the headstock. On the 3 of mine with Rosewood Fret Boards I used the body colour on the Maple back of neck and all around the headstock and happy with the results. Just need to stop sanding at 240 or maybe even 180 otherwise the maple will not soak up much colour. You can always smooth things out more later on when getting ready to polish.
Got the speed bumps off!
http://i.imgur.com/sR06Fk8.jpg
It was easier than I expected. I heated the first two with a soldering iron and there was no glue smell or bubbling, so I tried the next without, and it didn't seem to make a difference, so I continued without heating.
This is the worst tear-out. I don't think it's too bad.
http://i.imgur.com/Wt77Fhi.jpg
Plan is cedar timbermate into the gaps. I'm not sure how best to prep for that. I'm planning to mask either side of the cut so no timbermate gets onto the fretboard. Should I try to clean the cuts up first? There's no way the TM will flow out the sides, as there already seems to be some kind of filler in there. Should I carefully scrape/saw that out then mask the sides as well as a dam to try to get the cedar to show up on the sides? How should I go about making sure those little lifted bits of fretboard stay on?
http://i.imgur.com/5O0MdB0.jpg
I asked Karl here, but all he said was "walk time?"
http://i.imgur.com/q7eWxON.jpg
Looks like what happened on mine too.
Best to give the FB a light sand with 240 as there will be a few raised edges to knock down. If you want to see the filler on the edge of the FB suggest using a stanley knife or box cutter blade to gently scrape out and open up that part of the slot. Once prep has all been done, tape up the back of neck and Fret Board to prevent the TM going everywhere. When it has cured, about 24 hours later, you can peel off the masking tape and very lightly sand it smooth, including edges of the Fret Board. On mine, reapplied masking tape on edges of FB so that it acted like a dam to prevent the CA glue running down the edges and when doing final polish used DT wax on those edges as trying to use the CA stuff was just too hard on those curved edges.
Here are a couple of shots, one before and another after applying the timber mate.
Attachment 13242Attachment 13244
Thanks! That's pretty much what I had in mind for the tape. I think I'll leave the existing filler that's in there and keep the edges of the fretboard all the same colour. How did you prevent the tape lifting the pieces of fretboard that have come up a bit but not actually torn right out? Or didn't you? If not, did the CA fill in the little holes that left, or was it the timbermate? I guess it wouldn't be a problem with epoxy since that'll fill it anyway.
I'm still deciding between CA and epoxy. I'm going out to Carbatec today or tomorrow to have a look around since I've never been and I need some sandpaper and stuff, so I'll see if they have any epoxy and then try to make a decision.
Edit for a question I just thought of: I'm going to make the neck as flat as possible once the filling and light sanding is done, before I finish the fretboard. If I adjust the truss rod after that, is it going to crack a CA or epoxy finish, or is the adjustment too small for that happen?
G'day H, with the truss rod the neck will change shape once under load therefore a little forward bow, not much, could be handy. Frankly, to stop the CA or epoxy running everywhere it would be better to have things dead flat. I even went as far as sanding what little radius there was off the FB too. At this stage I have left it alone to completely settle and as there is plenty of forward bow I will need to slacken it off initially then pull down on the neck to flatten it out and gently tighten up to that point. It already feels too tight and don't want to break anything and did this procedure on one of the others recently to help straighten it out too.
In relation to the Rosewood chipping around removed frets, not much can be done about those and try to keep them well taped up so that you can use the CA or epoxy as both a binder/sealer & filler. I kept some of the small chips but the jigsaw puzzle was too big and complex to bother with. Maybe you could try and peel back from the edge of the FB and across from Low E to High G side very, very slowly for each strip that you have pre cut to fit the fret slots from nut to heel. You do not want to get timber mate in these splintered out bits as that would show up as more colour spread on the face of the FB and look a bit crappy.
Slot filling.
Taped the fretboard up, then decided that since I can't be neat with this stuff I taped the whole neck and head.
http://i.imgur.com/TIG1AP9.jpg
Got the timbermate on. Made it fairly runny so it'd fill the gaps.
http://i.imgur.com/sYdHQ6n.jpg
Waited for it to dry a bit. Hmm...
http://i.imgur.com/SzHEb5g.jpg
Since it doesn't (apparently) shrink as it dries, I assume what's happened is it wasn't runny enough, didn't initially reach the bottom of the slots, and has since sagged down. I guess I'm going over it again. I knew I shouldn't have cleaned everything up yet...
Hahaha bugger.
http://i.imgur.com/Rn1wHGa.jpg
Guess I'll lightly sand the fretboard back a little because some of that is bleed-through or poor masking.
Then... I don't know. Maybe I'll borrow a brown pen or texta or marker or something from the mrs, push a ruler up against the line, and try to colour over all the bits that aren't covered by the ruler.
Hi mate, the bleed looks a bit more like timber mate finding it's way into the splintered out bits of rosewood fret board that came away when extracting the frets. Similar thing happened on mine too and agree that localised light sanding should take most of it off and then you can give the whole FB a similar light sand all over to smooth out any other parts that were not so obvious. Not sure how deep those block fret markers go but you should be able to get away with a decent sand with a very fine grit. If too coarse that will introduce scratches to the block fret markers.
Colour looks good and presume you are happy with the outcome? Hard to pick end result from colour charts, samples in store, or looking at the stuff in the pot before applying but that should look even better once covered in CA or epoxy.
Yeah Waz, some of it's definitely the TM getting into the splintered bits, but some of it's also poor masking. I think in a couple of places the splinters that didn't come out were slightly raised and caused tiny gaps under the tape. I tried rubbing one of those parts of it with my fingernail and it looks like the worst looking parts are gonna come straight off with a little bit of sanding.
The colour's not exactly what I had in mind (a little light, a little pink), but I'm also glad I didn't go any darker or lighter. I'm hoping it'll come up a bit better after a sand and I'm sure it'll be heaps better once the finish is on. Overall I'm definitely happy with how it's turning out.
I went down to Carbatec today and got the Hot Stuff CA glue recommended by DB. It's a great store with super helpful staff and I'll definitely be going back.
When you way "very fine grit", what do you mean? My plan was to try to run down the high bits of TM with 320 then use 600 across the whole fretboard. Too coarse?
Good idea....slow and steady does it as TM is very soft and won't need much work to remove.
Just a heads up on the CA glue.....very toxic smelling stuff and the fumes actually affected my eyes by making them water therefore need to be doing this in a well ventilated place but not too much as you don't want to introduce dust or floating objects into the finish.
DB's thread mentions just 3 coats and as he is a master at doing this that may be so for him but was not the case for me. If you lay a fairly heavy wet coat it takes longer to set and cure but generally comes out more even however the open rosewood will soak up a decent amount on 1st coat. Tended to find that subsequent thinner coats were more fickle and dried in patches rather than an even finish where light sanding back often cut back to the bare FB. Towards the end I was using 1500 and that had too much bite and moved on to 2000 grit.
Best advice is to give it plenty of time to cure before sanding prior coats. From my experience this was at least a couple of days but that was during the mild winters we get in South East Qld and could take longer in colder parts of the country.
Once you have done a couple of coats you will have a better idea of how things are shaping up.
Sanding done.
Some parts came out nicely.
http://i.imgur.com/HOMZc8q.jpg
Other parts not so much, but even the bad bits are heaps better than they were.
http://i.imgur.com/9KtdJ2T.jpg
At any distance other than these super-super-closeup shots you can really only see the largest flaws. I'm gonna get a brown sharpie and try to very carefully draw fine lines over them in the direction of the grain to break them up a bit.
Didn't get a photo, but I wiped down with a damp rag afterwards and if that's any indication of what it'll look like with a clear fnish, it's gonna look pretty good.
Located the worst chips, took a brown sharpie and carefully dotted/lined them and then immediately (and gently) rubbed them away from the fret line with a damp cloth, then gave the whole thing a little wipe-down with a slightly damp cloth afterward.
http://i.imgur.com/zzWmkF7.jpg
Not perfect, but I think I'm going to have call it good enough because I can't see a way to make it better from here and you can't easily see any flaws from arm's length.
Next up I'm going to shape the headstock.
Debating whether to get the neck finish on before or after the fretboard finish is done. I'd guess fretboard first because then I can easily sand off any glue runs?
I think that doing the CA top before doing the neck finish sounds like a plan.
Yes thats the way to go. Mask up the neck first then CA the fretboard
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Awesome, that's next then!
In some unexpected spare time this afternoon, this happened:
http://i.imgur.com/tul4of9.jpg
Gonna use the offcuts to test out what it'll look like with timbermate, and also gonna test out the stain on an offcut next to the body and if I can't get them a similar colour, I'll do the neck and head both in natural.
Some really nice grain happening from midway point to the heel on that fret board. Headstock shape looks great too.
The overfilled bits of timber mate will hardly be noticeable. Not so sure about the sharpie marker pen stuff and how that will react with the CA glue. Probably best to test that on a scrap bit of timber to see if it runs/melts/or bleeds?
Good catch, didn't think about that! I'll test it out first for sure.
I noticed that the fretboard felt slightly uneven as I run my hand up and down it, so I ordered a 12" radius block I found cheapish on ebay and I'm gonna make sure everything's super smooth before I start the finishing.
I'm ordering some Nullarbor Ochre DT tonight or tomorrow. Then I just gotta decide where to go with the neck. I'm going to test the ebony timbermate out on the offcut from the headstock, and if that works out I'll probably go body colour on the neck and head too, although I've got enough DT clear neck stain and finish left over from the tele to do this one too.
Never done ebony timber mate on back of neck or face of headstock so cannot comment. Only thing is the rock maple grain is pretty tight already and hope you haven't sanded it yet otherwise not much TM will stick after sanding back once it has fully cured.
Nullabor Ochre DT will look good as the FB has some of that shade in it too.
Any plans to upgrade PUP's? On my J Bass the stock Chinese ones sound reasonably OK but very low in output so I ordered the high end Entwistles and just waiting on the neck one to arrive from UK as PBG site only had a Bridge one. They do have both of the JBX type for $22.95 each which seems good value.
My plan was to install the stock pickups then maybe upgrade later depending on how they sounded.
BUT installing the pickups is a long way off yet so who knows? Maybe I'll decide to get some new ones. I'm going to keep an eye on second-hand sites for pickups for this and the tele.
Body sanded to 320 ready for staining. Head all shaped and sanded. Just waiting for the Dingotone to arrive now!
http://i.imgur.com/ic6NGvD.jpg
yeah, nice, this will looks awesome
Looking great H!!
Got this done today. Doesn't look any different, but feels smoother.Quote:
Originally Posted by UpperCaseH
I'm not sure it actually started with a 12" radius, but it's got one now, so hopefully that works out well.
Tomorrow arvo I'll probably get a chance to start the CA finish. That's making me a bit nervous, but so far on this and the tele my experience is that you'd pretty much have to be trying to make an unrecoverable mistake, so I'm sure I'll manage.
I'm planning to mask the neck completely, and make a tape "dam" to stop the glue running off the top of the fingerboard. Plan is to keep the CA finish just on the face of the fingerboard, and then finish the fingerboard sides in a neck clear coat or even just wax or oil. I sort of want to CA the sides too, but I can't think of a good way to actually do it.
CA on the edges of the FB is hard to do as the stuff is so watery and will easily run all over the place. On mine I masked off the line where rosewood meets maple and didn't even need to try and coat the edges as that sort of happened in one way or another. When sanding back and doing final polish I was more worried about the face of the FB as the edges were always going to be waxed after doing the whole of the back of the neck with 0000 steel wool to give it a very slippery satin finish. The wax was only used to seal those rosewood edges.
That sounds like a better idea, I'm gonna do it that way instead :)Quote:
Originally Posted by wazkelly
Edit: Working like a charm. Didn't really "run everywhere", but it wasn't that easy to get it to stay in the center of the fretboard. Pic's from about half way through the process, I had to keep going back and adding a little more here and there as suface tension broke and it ran from the center or made holes. but it wasn't the hardest thing to do and it's looking pretty great.
Whoever said "ventilated area"... I'd go a step further and say "do it outside". I did it outside, leaning over the neck. Just before the pic was taken I realised my eyes were starting to sting a little, so I did the rest of the job at arm's length with a bandana over my nose and mouth. It doesn't really smell strong, but it's obviously nasty stuff.
http://i.imgur.com/H0taPnA.jpg
Haha, I messed up pretty bad.
I clearly put way way too much glue on the fretboard. It was still not dry or even close to dry after an hour and a half - still moving slightly when I'd tilt the neck slightly. "No problem, I'll just scrape the excess away while it's wet". Nope, because it's semi-dried into a weird gel that makes a huge messy problem when you touch it. Obviously.
Guess I'll wait for this stippled/rippled/bumpy mess to go solid and then get sanding while repeating "why am I an idiot" over and over again.
bummer H, that neck was looking sweet as in the pic above. If it was a thick coat of glue I would have left it at least 24 hours to fully cure. Hope you learnt your lesson !
"Don't touch it, it's still wet!"
-My dad, circa early 80s, teaching little me the very first DIY lesson I ever got. Apparently I didn't listen then, and obviously nothing's changed.