Here we go... Muzza's first build. Non PBG PRS-1TS

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Originally Posted by wokkaboy

Have you used the stain coat and given it at least 3 days curing between coats ?

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Wokks, the DingoTone only arrived today.

Here's my understanding of what I'm meant to do.

1) apply 3 - 4 base coats, allowing to dry a bit between coats.
2) wait 3, 4 or 5 days and do 1) again
3) do 2 again
4) maybe do 2 again
5) apply ONE coat of intensifier coat and leave for 3 days.

This is where my quickly diminishing confidence grinds to a halt.

How many coats of intensifier will I need and what does it actually do? (Please don't say it 'intensifies') Is it just another type of dye that's not meant for bare wood?

I'm doing a burst (brave for a first build???) and each base colour has a corresponding intensifier. Do I have to be really careful with the blending, like on the burst base coats? I'm concerned because in the video, and I've also read here in the forums, that it's important to not overwork the intensifying coat.

I have no issues with the woodworking or electronics side of building these guitars, but I'm starting to think I should've gone the airbrush route...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wokkaboy

I will get in trouble for suggesting this but Feast Watson Proof Tint Black will give you darker results. The shade of black you got is similar to wudtone black magic woman, it's not really a black black

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Yes, I saw that great ES-2V burst with the wudtone Black Magic Woman and although the top of the guitar looked fabulous, the back and neck really ruined the guitar for me.

I was assured that DT Black Stump was so black, it makes all the other blacks run and hide, but I feel they're all coming out of hiding and having a laugh.

If I got the Feast Watson stuff, is that compatible with the DingoTone finish coat. And would I still need to use the intensifier?

Hey Muzz, each of the guys have a different take on how to apply DT. Its a bit of an artform. Wokks has done a few bursts with it so he can give you some tips. I would apply as many stain coats as you think you need to reach the colour you want. the colour deepens the longer you leave it to cure. The colour will also deepen when you apply the intensifier coat. Make sure you shake well before use and put the cap on tightly after use so i doesn't dry out. Being on the sunny coast you may want to ask Wazkelly his advice too in dealing with the humidity and DT.
Stain coats are easy and the DT takes well to different wood types. I had some issues over peak summer in Brissy with the drying time with the DT intensifier coat in the humidity. Like Waz I finished in TO, which is fine, looks good but part of me wished I had stuck to my guns with the DT, persevered and waited longer. I think i just became impatient. I just got my DT for my TLA-1R build so it looks as i'll be staining along with you. I'll be sticking with the DT this time till the bitter end.....good luck mate.

Hi Muzz, with my couple of EX builds I found the viscosity differed between batches of DT where the Experimental Orange was more of a clear liquid look and coloured up really quick and strong whilst the 2nd batch of CG used on the EX1 was almost like peanut satay sauce once shaken up and totally different to CG batch used with OS to create the Orange. On the EX1 it took forever to start showing any real colour and it took 5 coats and the whole bottle of stain with no dramas. Most coats were done at night after work with no less than 24 hours to no more than 48 apart and stain coats worked out fine, even with the humidity we had leading up to xmas. Intensifier deepened the colour a bit at a time with this batch whereas on 1st build it was like playing with a contrast knob as the difference was immediately noticeable. On each build it got ugly at around 3rd, 4th or 5th intensifier coat as things started to look patchy with dry and shiny bits here and there. In hindsight I was probably too greedy chasing more colour and each layer of intensifier after 2nd coat was probably just adding more thickness and additional drying time before you could scuff sand with 0000 steel wool to prepare for a DT top coat. Only ever applied one DT top coat on the Orange axe and it turned to poo requiring a 400 grit wet sand to remove the shite and consequently plenty of colour too. Gave up in disgust and reluctantly went with TO as it seems to be more forgiving in relation to heat and humidity conditions. Still got around 3 full DT top coat bottles and 1 full DT clear neck finish that may get an encore on one of the DIY kit builds but not sure of shelf life for unopened product?

In summary, all I can say is have a go and be patient between coats 3 - 5 of stain, and even more patient between intensifier coats. The temptation is rub more of the finish in harder on each application and after using TO the penny has dropped in that less on the rag and done over a few more applications seems to be the answer.

Let's face it, Feb is our worst month and once that is behind us weather conditions should start to improve, hence why I am currently mucking around with wiring on other projects at present.

As far as I understand the intensifier just makes the colour of the finish more vivid, or "pop" more, as for how many applications of it, I'm guessing you just keep applying coats till you get the effect you're after, I haven't even tried using intensifier on a guitar build yet so don't take my word as gospel, I'm just going by what I understand that's all.

How will I know when it's OK to put on another set of base coats?

And do I rub down with 0000 steel wool first?

Muzz I was going to respond but I realised you are going for a burst. PM Wokkaboy for his tips on how to burst with DT. He would have posted already but i understand he's been really busy at work.

When I was laying down a single stain, I wanted it dark, so I kept applying DT until I got the rough colour I was after. then waited a week to cure. I wanted to add more at that stage so I kept going again waited a week to cure until I got the deep colour I was after. It was a lot easier than what you are going for because 1. it wasn't a burst and 2. I wanted the colour as deep as I could get it.

I did not sand or steel wool between stain coats, you shouldn't need to. The wood needs a bit of "tooth" for the stain to grab on, steel wool will only polish the "tooth" out.

Agree with Andy about the steel wool as it only comes into play when trying to smooth things out in preparation for the top coats that obviously you want much smoother than the initial layers.

Burst may be trickier but if patient and take your time should work out ok. One of Woks threads mentions using separate rags. One for each of the solid colours and a fresh one for blending the colours to create the burst effect.

Hmmmmm.. The black should be a heck of a lot darker than that.
If you like, I am happy to send you another black stump kit cause that one just isnt cutting the mustard.

On another note, it appears the instructions might not be as concise as required...
Sigh, another job to add to my ever growing list.........

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Originally Posted by dingobass

If you like, I am happy to send you another black stump kit cause that one just isn't cutting the mustard.

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Yes please and thank you...

Question time...

1) Do you think the Black Stump intensifier will still be OK?

2) Should I start to remove the Black Stump coats I've already applied, or will I be able to apply the replacement straight over the top of it?

3) I suppose I could use this non-mustard-cutting 'Black Stump' as the grain popper? Or do I need to use something more 'black' for that purpose?

4) Nobody seems to want to answer this one - how I will know when I can apply the second lot of stain coats?

5) Can I speed up the drying process by putting the body and neck in direct sunshine? Or in a room with a de-humidifier?

Thanks again. Good customer service.

Thinking we might as well replace both, that way you get a fresh batch.
Meanwhile, sand it back with 220 to help get some tooth happening.

I was editing my post as you were typing, so you may have missed my extra questions DB.

You've already answered 1) & 2)

3) I suppose I could use this non-mustard-cutting 'Black Stump' as the grain popper? Or do I need to use something more 'black' for that purpose?

4) Nobody seems to want to answer this one - how I will know when I can apply a second lot of stain coats?

5) Can I speed up the drying process by putting the body and neck in direct sunshine? Or in a room with a de-humidifier?

Thanks again.

Some parts of the back of the body seem to have gone black [the grain patten at the top, left of centre ], but most hasn't.... actually the finish ATM looks to me what they call Japan Black.....people pay a fortune in Sydney to have their floorboards done that colour.

Hi Muzza, no way to speed up the curing process without things ending up in tears. Just need to be patient with the DT or pick another product for finishing if you are in a hurry to get the job done. Even then you probably won't save that much time as every coat needs time to go off, no matter what product you use.

Thanks boys.

That's question 1, 2 & 5 out of the way.

Still waiting on 3 & 4...

Hey Muzza, yep, you will find it will pop the grain.
With the stain coat, you can go mental and keep applying it until the timber won't absorb any more.
If after that you still have some left, give it 24 hours and go again.

let it cure for a few days and then apply the first coat of intensifyer.

Now for the good news, you are officially one of our beta testers for MKII. :)
Drying times are greatly reduced so that should make life easier.

So that makes two beta testers, anyone else game enough to put their hand up?
We will be shipping it out early next weekish.

I think that stain is looking absolutely killer as is. I'd beta test, but I still have a lot of sanding to do before I'm ready to stain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dingobass

Hey Muzza, yep, you will find it will pop the grain.
With the stain coat, you can go mental and keep applying it until the timber won't absorb any more.
If after that you still have some left, give it 24 hours and go again.

let it cure for a few days and then apply the first coat of intensifyer.

Now for the good news, you are officially one of our beta testers for MKII. :)
Drying times are greatly reduced so that should make life easier.

So that makes two beta testers, anyone else game enough to put their hand up?
We will be shipping it out early next weekish.

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Willing to beta test on an alder body i have here, or a beautiful Swamp Ash, or i got a few thing here i could try it on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blueshound

I think that stain is looking absolutely killer as is.

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Thanks Blueshound. Yes, I guess it does look pretty good... if that's the colour you're looking for.

But the colour of my particular guitar's back, sides and neck needs to be black.

"Popping the grain"....!!!!!

Who's f#$%&*@ idea was THAT?

If I didn't hate sanding before, I sure do now. Safe to say, I'm not trying that again.

I've gotta say, I'm not enjoying this hand rubbed burst experience. Hopefully, the fruit of my efforts will make it all worthwhile, but I'm not liking the result so far.

After more 240 grit (and even down to 180 grit) than the whole build so far...
Attachment 8700

I was just going to coat the whole face with Nullabor Ochre and wait until the new improved 'BLACK Stump' arrives.
Attachment 8701

But my curiosity and impatience got the better of me - I tried my hand at the initial stages of a burst using the 'Blackish' Stump - thinking the thin-ness may help me with the blending.
Attachment 8702

The third photo is after about 5 coats of N.O. and B.S. Probably should've stopped after 3 or 4 as it just wasn't taking any more in.

BTW, the Black Stump does look black in these photos, but it's really thin/transparent. The grain of the maple is still very visible.

I reckon my airbrush is going to see the light of day for the first time in over 12 years on my next build. It'll need new 'O' rings I'd say...

Can you spray DingoTone? Or does it HAVE to be rubbed in?

Id guess it'd have to be rubbed in as it's a stain rather than a paint, also why you can still see the grain with the black stump - it's colouring the grain rather than covering it

but there are much more knowledgeable people than me out there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzza

"Popping the grain"....!!!!!

Who's f#$%&*@ idea was THAT?

If I didn't hate sanding before, I sure do now. Safe to say, I'm not trying that again.


I've gotta say, I'm not enjoying this hand rubbed burst experience. Hopefully, the fruit of my efforts will make it all worthwhile, but I'm not liking the result so far.

After more 240 grit (and even down to 180 grit) than the whole build so far...
Attachment 8700

I was just going to coat the whole face with Nullabor Ochre and wait until the new improved 'BLACK Stump' arrives.
Attachment 8701

But my curiosity and impatience got the better of me - I tried my hand at the initial stages of a burst using the 'Blackish' Stump - thinking the thin-ness may help me with the blending.
Attachment 8702

The third photo is after about 5 coats of N.O. and B.S. Probably should've stopped after 3 or 4 as it just wasn't taking any more in.

BTW, the Black Stump does look black in these photos, but it's really thin/transparent. The grain of the maple is still very visible.

I reckon my airbrush is going to see the light of day for the first time in over 12 years on my next build. It'll need new 'O' rings I'd say...

Can you spray DingoTone? Or does it HAVE to be rubbed in?

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I've just copied your photos, then stuck them in photoshop to see what a light yellow /gold stain might look like if you "Lightly" rubbed it in, starting from the centre working out.

To save you the suspense, it could look like a highly desirable PRS custom job.

IMHO, leave it as is ATM....get some light yellow stain/dye, and make it very weak....then slowly build up the yellow starting from the centre, go over the black as well. it will give it that vintage 'Old Nitrocellulose' look....it could end up looking like my 40 year old 347.
Depends how shiny you want it, and what sort or finish you intend, clear or tinted.

Every stuff up has a silver lining....it just might not be what you expected....best rule is..... be happy to have a guitar to work on, and think laterally.

PM me for a specific procedure on how to get this axe of yours the envy of everybody else.
You might not see it, but I can.

Thanks Tweaky, but that's only the first few coats. The black part of the burst will eventually take up a lot more of the surface before I'm finished. Have a look half way down page 3 of his thread to see what I'm hoping to emulate.

The black scares me, so I'm taking baby steps - each coat encroaching a little further until I get is something like I want.

Definitely airbrushing next time. I don't have the patience for all this waiting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzza

"Popping the grain"....!!!!!

Who's f#$%&*@ idea was THAT?

If I didn't hate sanding before, I sure do now. Safe to say, I'm not trying that again.

I've gotta say, I'm not enjoying this hand rubbed burst experience. Hopefully, the fruit of my efforts will make it all worthwhile, but I'm not liking the result so far.

After more 240 grit (and even down to 180 grit) than the whole build so far...
Attachment 8700

I was just going to coat the whole face with Nullabor Ochre and wait until the new improved 'BLACK Stump' arrives.
Attachment 8701

But my curiosity and impatience got the better of me - I tried my hand at the initial stages of a burst using the 'Blackish' Stump - thinking the thin-ness may help me with the blending.
Attachment 8702

The third photo is after about 5 coats of N.O. and B.S. Probably should've stopped after 3 or 4 as it just wasn't taking any more in.

BTW, the Black Stump does look black in these photos, but it's really thin/transparent. The grain of the maple is still very visible.

I reckon my airbrush is going to see the light of day for the first time in over 12 years on my next build. It'll need new 'O' rings I'd say...

Can you spray DingoTone? Or does it HAVE to be rubbed in?

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Bursts can be a challenge.. They do take a bit of patience and practice.
I have sprayed DT with varying results.
The dye based ones such as Black Stump were very successful.
The pigment based such as Nullarbor require a larger nozzle and can be a bit tricky as you need to keep the mixture moving to stop the pigments settling out and blocking the nozzle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzza

Thanks Tweaky, but that's only the first few coats. The black part of the burst will eventually take up a lot more of the surface before I'm finished. Have a look half way down page 3 of his thread to see what I'm hoping to emulate.

The black scares me, so I'm taking baby steps - each coat encroaching a little further until I get is something like I want.

Definitely airbrushing next time. I don't have the patience for all this waiting.

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Hi Muzza, ever thought about using humble black ink pad ink or black fountain pen ink which is cheap and available at officeworks.

Looks like most black stains or dyes allow some of the grain to show and probably only a solid black paint would be the alternative to get similar effect as shown on page 3 of this thread.

I've thought about using lots of alternatives Waz, but I was seduced by the idea of using Dingotone by the many threads here.

Dingo himself said this batch of 'Black Stump' didn't look right and he's sending me a new batch of B.S. mkII. We'll see how that goes.

What frustrates me about using Dingotone (probably Wudtone too) is the eternal wait for it to cure. My enthusiasm for the finishing process is well and truly gone and now I just want to put this guitar together and play the flippin' thing.

I feel your pain and frustration as I have been mucking around with my EX-5 since about August and only just starting the final polish and assembly this weekend.

As DB says, you can't rush things if you want a good finish and in the long run it should be worth all the effort and patience required.

I've got 2 guitar builds on hold and waiting for the DingoTone MkII to arrive is killing me, so I thought I'd see if I could get some more depth to the black if I just persevered with the Translucent Stump MkI.

But no luck. If anything, it seemed to rub off the stuff that was already there.

Attachment 8907

Attachment 8908
That's about 10 layers of Black Stump over 3 sessions.

So I went to the big Green Shed and bought something that someone here suggested and tried it on the second build.
Hey Presto. Instant result.
This is only one coat of Jarrah and one coat of Black. (Now that's Black!)
Attachment 8909

I didn't even try to pop the grain. (Never trying that again anyway...)

I placed the gold hardware on the top to get the effect and I think I may be onto a winner at last.

Love the colour choices Muzza! Also I think the gold pickup rings are a perfect compliment. Great work! Looking forward to seeing this one assembled.

cheers,
Gav.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gavinturner

Love the colour choices Muzza! Also I think the gold pickup rings are a perfect compliment. Great work!

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Thanks Gavin. (The one with the gold hardware is my second PRS build, by the way. I put it here to compare the finishes.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gavinturner

Looking forward to seeing this one assembled.

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You and me both mate...

Waiting for various bits to arrive, wondering what to do with myself..

Why not take a rasp to the body?

Before...
Attachment 9019

After...
Attachment 9020

Me likey!

Me likey too.

Would you blend that hard edge, to evoke the fall of the main body cotourin, or leave it hard?

I might soften it a little, but the contour on the body is quite subtle, nothing like a real PRS.

(Edit: I just looked at a couple of PRSs online, and they have a hard edge too. I might even go deeper, like this one...
Attachment 9025

I'm thinking of carving out the top of the back as well, so it doesn't dig into my ribs, summink like a Strat.

Too many pot holes, so I converted one of them into a strat type output jack.
Attachment 9051

Which meant I had to fill the hole in the side with a 'bung'. I made it by hand with an upside down belt sander, slightly conical to get a good fit.
Attachment 9052

Attachment 9053

Seemed to work OK. Need to maybe work at it a little more to make it disappear completely...
Attachment 9054

Attachment 9055

Love your work! I'd not really examined a lot of PRS guitars but i kinda like that look. (sigh) add another kit to the "I really would like to build" list.

Black Stump mkII has arrived. Still not as 'black' as I'd hoped.

Left is 6 coats of BS mkI, (4 weeks ago) Right is 1 coat of BS mkII over that...
Attachment 9333 Attachment 9334

I MUST be doing something wrong - it's just not going 'black'!

There is also a section of the flame maple that just refuses to take in any black stump. It must be the maple, as it is at the same place on both sides of the bookmatched veneer, just above the level of the bridge pup.
Attachment 9335

I'm finding it difficult to get a good photo with the lighting in the studio and an iPhone. I tried using a lamp but the camera picked up heaps of glare that isn't there with the naked eye.

The black in the photo looks darker than it actually is, and the 'thin' patches are much more visible with the naked eye. (lots of naked eyes in my studio... :cool: )

I'm going out for a couple of hours now. When I get back, can I try putting more coats on, or do I have to wait 5 &@%$ing days?

Muzza some timbers won't take stains as well as others, what grit did you sand to ?

I'd give it 2 or 3 days to cure, you may find it will darken while curing

Some maple just wont take much colour, i tried to do a headstock with black stain ages ago for a guy and its looked thin and pasty, i couldnt get the grain to pop like i wanted, so i sprayed it with black nitro after using a sealer and that worked, but i am sure that not what your after.

@ Muzza That PRS build is coming along really well, I'm liking the sunburst finish on it.