I've ordered fresh supplies of spirits, unlike Gav from Fires Creek, you can only drink so much Tru Oil
Printable View
I've ordered fresh supplies of spirits, unlike Gav from Fires Creek, you can only drink so much Tru Oil
good move Stan, what are we talking whiskeys or bourbons you stocked up on?
yer Gav T seems to drink tru oil in pint glasses
cont from...http://www.pitbullguitars.com/commun...topic&t=1155.9
Firstly Gav, great explanation man, very interesting.Quote:
Hey Bargeloobs, First things first...
You mentioned 'Nitro' (as I have just done) so we will have to continue our discussion in the Naughty Room where beer is on tap and Pizza's in the oven.
For your and anyone else who thinks we dis Nitro, we don't really. We just aren't that excited about the tone killing properties of the product. It certainly looks great. So what follows is not a defence of our view but more of an explanation of it. We recognise that there are other who disagree with our view.
DB and I and a number of others on the forum are TONE-focussed. the history of guitar finishes is an interesting one. Initially the Fenders and Gibsons of the world were quite happy applying a finish (possibly reminiscent of Wudtone / Dingotone) because they had less of a demand for the product than would be experienced shortly after. They had time to allow their paint to sure properly.
But the tone of these guitars (many of which are classics today) was terrific, but there came a point where to increase production and to get the end product to the market they had to come up with something that dried and cured faster, hence the introduction of Nitro (don't worry - Nitro is an allowable word in the Naughty Room.) This meant the end product was finished faster and looked great too. Unfortunately, in the view of many TONE was compromised. There is a debate around this - it depends on your ear and what you are used to and what you know is possible.
Perhaps by way of illustration consider a great voice singing naturally versus putting a fish bowl over your head and singing.... Particularly relevant with acoustic guitars where the difference is so audible that Taylor's new 800 series is now painted with an extremely thin but durable UV product. The Taylors now sound sensational whereas to my ears even their top of the range guitars used to go "Thud" when you played them rather than 'sparkle'.
Again the debate with electrics is interesting because the view held is that the sound only comes from the pickups. But what are the pickup picking up? The strings. What influences the tone, sustain and vibration of the strings? The nut and the bridge, and these are attached to the material of the guitar, be that a variety of wood, metal, oil can, cigar box, Perspex, etc. With an acoustic guitar the body is designed to be an 'air pump'. The better the vibration of the soundboard, the better the 'sound' that emanates from the guitar. This is why you will find that a soundboard of an acoustic is usually always a 'light wood' like Bunya, Sitka, Adirondack, cedar, redwood, etc. and the back and sides will be a hardwood like the rosewood family (Indian, Brazilian, Honduran, Madagascar), cocobolo, Zebrawood, Katalox, Ebony family, etc. The mahogany, maple and Koa is considered a medium wood and hence sometimes you will find the soundboard and the back and sides of the guitar will be constructed in that wood. The ability of the body to vibrate will be influenced by the choice of wood. This is true also of electrics which is why different wood tend towards different tonal properties. However, the moment you throw copious amounts of finish on to the wood, these properties are altered because the wood will not vibrate in the same way. This changes how the strings behave and ultimately what the pickups will amplify. Again all this can be altered by the sound processors, but garbage in garbage out.... to some extent.
Hence, while DB, myself and others will marvel at the beauty of a Nitro finish, we would compromise the rich deep gloss of a nitro finish for pure TONE. Wudtone certainly retains the tone of a well built and well thought out instrument but lacked the depth that is seen in a Nitro finish. Dingotone achieves both Tone and Depth of finish.
Whilst I'll admit right now I know very little about the tonal characteristics of specific timbers I fully understand where you're coming from when you talk about deadening a timber (and therefore the tone) through the use of various coatings when applied too heavily.
I think from a purists perspective you're absolutely right, I think from the average Joe's perspective it's not really an issue.
I'd be willing to bet any average (and probably many exceptional) guitarists would be hard pressed to even tell the difference in tone between two identical electric guitars with different finishes (e.g nitro vs dingotone), furthermore think of any famous guitarist of the 20th century, renown for his "tone" and you'll probably find he's either playing or has played an electric guitar that has a nitro finish.
It's like when I hear people talking about how a 96Khz recording sounds so much better than one tracked at 48Khz, it makes me laugh.
I'm not disagreeing with you but I think the effects of Nitro are negligible when talking about electric guitars and their tone, and in all reality an acrylic or poly finish would be far more detrimental to tone as they, by their very nature inherently thicker.
By all means prove me wrong...make me a believer.
I don't think Nitro has any more to do with the guitar, than to let the wood breath.
It is the wood that makes or breaks the tone. :D
PK
both of course!Quote:
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on May 19, 2014, 11:39
good move Stan, what are we talking whiskeys or bourbons you stocked up on?
yer Gav T seems to drink tru oil in pint glasses
We need to make up a whole bunch of one kit and do a tone comparison, mythbusters shoot out style, on finishes, nuts, pots, cheap and expensive pickups with same resistance etc....
I'd tend to agree with you on that one PK.Quote:
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from kells80aus on May 28, 2014, 14:42
I don't think Nitro has any more to do with the guitar, than to let the wood breath.
It is the wood that makes or breaks the tone. :D
PK
Doing my home work alot on this beleive me, modern acrylic clears applied thin enough have no more effect on tone then a nitro finish. As quoted modern arcrylics dry very hard thus causing great resinance of there own. Natural wood will lose a percentage of quality regardless of what finish is applied. Dont get wrong your best tone qualities will always come from the least amount of finnish possible. Tru oil and any gloss /semi gloss finnish will have an affect. So the bottom line is regardless of your choice of finish keep it as thin as possible for your best results. As stated above , Steve via/ the edge / slash / joe satriarni / Richi sambora /nuno Betencourt and the list goes on.....are all known for there tone all be it through wood and electronics and nitro / acrylic finishes. Remember acrylic has more or less the same properties as nitro minus the solvents. It is classed as the modern nitro wothout the yellowing over time. These are not my words but words of many experts around the world. So weather your choice be nitro/ acrylic or dingo tone, enjoy how your instrument looks. And remember you will be able to use dingo tone colours for your grain under your acrylic clear. My personal choice will be to do that due to Dingo's colours compared to any other dyes on the market and of cause its a natural product made right here in Aus
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.
If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things :)
so basically like your latest bass DB ?
it did sound awesome what a beast of a bass. Next time we leave I'll get Popeye to distract you and I'll pop in in the car haha
"ni ni" I laffed!Quote:
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on June 6, 2014, 07:49
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.
If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things :)
So essentially you've said it yourself DB "there is a slight tradeoff with tone", so in fact using the term "tone killer" is (I think you'll agree) a bit extreme.
I think they're all valid points too but we must look at "tone" objectively and not get hung up on certain products just because we prefer them over others, I reckon if something sounds good then....it probably is (and vice versa).
Hmmm.... a string through, neck through Firebird...
wouldnt the ultimate be not to put a finish on a guitar at all? Not good for longevity , but killer for tone...
In my defence, if you re-read my comment I didn't say nitro was a 'tone killer' but referred to 'tone killing properties'. Anything that reduces the potential tone of an instrument lessens the quality of the sound of the guitar. As i also said, this is a hotly debated subject. I love the story told by Erwin Somogyi whose acoustic guitars sell for around $35,000 a guitar.Quote:
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from bargeloobs on June 7, 2014, 04:48
"ni ni" I laffed!Quote:
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on June 6, 2014, 07:49
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.
If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things :)
So essentially you've said it yourself DB "there is a slight tradeoff with tone", so in fact using the term "tone killer" is (I think you'll agree) a bit extreme.
I think they're all valid points too but we must look at "tone" objectively and not get hung up on certain products just because we prefer them over others, I reckon if something sounds good then....it probably is (and vice versa).
Hmmm.... a string through, neck through Firebird...
A customer brought in an average guitar to ask him to repair it. The guitar was no longer playing in tune and needed to be fixed. Erwin took a look at the guitar and there was nothing to suggest any damage that would suddenly lead to the guitar playing out of tune. The customer was insistent that for several years there was no issue with the tuning, it had to be something that had changed within the guitar.
Erwin being the pro that he is knew better, he explained to the client that what had in fact changed was the client's ability to hear the correct notes up and down the fretboard. He explained that the clients guitar was never perfectly in tune and that the client was now at a level where a far superior guitar was needed. How did Erwin discover this, he simply handed the customer some of his hand built guitars and of course these were spot on, he then gave the customer some of his other client guitars that he was doing basic repair work to and these guitars were as out of tune as the customers own guitar.
I love this story because i know in my own experience how my ears learned to hear what I believe is sound quality. Working in a recording studio for several years can fine tune you auditory abilities or perhaps make you deaf(?). Maybe DB and I are pedantic about tone. We are extremely hard on ourselves when we build because we want to build an instrument that we will be proud to put our names to, hence our relentless quest! But tone and sound is a very personal choice and there really is no right or wrong answer when saying that one likes a particular tone. This is also why we share what we have learned so freely on the forum.
Debate is always welcome, this is how we learn too.
The ultimate would indeed be not to put finish on a guitar and in fact I always dread the loss of tone that might occur with my acoustic builds. But, especially with acoustics they need protection and to reduce the expansion and contraction of the wood with humidity which can raise and lower the bridge and hence the string height over the fretboard. So there has to be a compromise.
As DB said, there is a trade-off between tone, protection and finish required to achieve both.
Ah Gav we know your not wrong but hey I just like stuff that's shiney.
Also to put a point out there that piano's where once shellac and not painted like they are now.
How mass production changes things hey !
I'm hearin' ya Gav, if I was puttin' out instruments of your blokes quality and craftsmanship I'd be fairly pedantic about it too.
Now what was the story about Jambuck heaters (approx. $100 at the Big Green Store) :D
PK
Ok Quick look online, someone got ripped off.Jumbuck 2000W Outdoor Electric Heater $69
Just had a blonde moment. If I put my patio heater in their I could achieve an instant cure. WOOOOF..
PK don't use a heater to cure the clear coats, its an infra red heater, I had a look on the big green shed website and couldn't see it so you will have to check with your local store.
Think the brand is Jumbuck, it has 2 or 3 heater tubes in it, looks similar to the outdoor one
Tks Wokka. the prob isn't the curing it's the warming.
PK
I might head down to 'United Tools' in Hopeless Crossing and see what they have to offer. they had some electric units in their last week.
PK
How bout a hybrid brass resonator/ electric build for tone. Use a mix of pickups and bug mikes.
Im new to guiitar building so I'm not sure what's possible and plausible. But I've played on an old resonater acoustic and loved the tone that came from it, but I'd still like the versatility of an electric (for lead riffs) without swapping guitars.
The naughty room AGM went well with DB lifting the ban for the day. Wokks served the pints and Gav may just be convinced to buy a CNC. Beer flowed and I got to show off a couple off my favourite girls. Really good to meet Gav Wokks and Wayne and ofcause always good to see DB. Next one at Adams for pitbull party
Looking forward to Ad's bash (PBG's 2nd anniversary). Excellent afternoon at Jarrod's mancave, that CNC and Jarrod's skills driving it are something to see. Reckon I'd need a serious CAD course under my belt to do a CNC some justice.
Nah. You just buy the CNC and then buy all the G-code off Jarrod. easy :)
PK
[quote]/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from kells80aus on August 11, 2014, 06:13
Nah. You just buy the CNC and then buy all the G-code off Jarrod. easy :)
here is my girl pk. A photo as you requested
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-con...7719973739.jpg
thanks for showing us your man cave Jarrod. Very impressed at the CNC machine and the templates you cut look awesome. We discussed all the important things and the list of things DB doesn't like is a mile long !
That's how come everybody else here is in the naughty room!Quote:
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on August 11, 2014, 09:57
the list of things DB doesn't like is a mile long !
haha good point Pablo, its a pretty packed naughty room alright, might need to convert a warehouse to fit everyone in !
Fabulous bit of Kit Jarrod. I think I'm in lurve.... lol
PK
Geez Woks.... that was a bit harsh... i only dislike gibsons, warlocks, icepersons..... ok... so it is a longish list :)
i should point out that is purely personal. i know peeps love em and thats ok by me.
how boring would it be if we all liked the same stuff?
Yer good point DB, if we all liked the same products there would be no naughty room.
How boring would that be ?
...and who would serve beer and Pizza if AJ and Wokka weren't permanently in the Naughty Room....
Woks, you left out of DB's list:
The big green store
Nitro
Poly
TrueOil
plastic Nuts
Brass Nuts
Tools NOT purchased from StewMac (he has them ALL)
The Telenapper (if he ever finds out who this is, he expects to find several Tele's he once owned, a baritone scratchy and some Basses.
Frets on a Fretboard
Scratch Plates
Pickguards
These are off the top of my head...... :P
haha yer Gav I did leave them off the DB's hate list. Think you covered most of it !
He's also not a fan of Feast Watson proof tint stains !
I think AJ must be on the lam from the naughty room. Haven't seen him around here for a while.