TL-1TB Build

I'm always trying to write in general terms, so yes, some of this isn't applicable to Pendragon's guitar, but it did get a bit confusing when he said the strings were hitting the fretboard, so either he'd have to raise the bridge up a bit or reduce the shim height.

You and I may look after out guitars, but there is a large percentage of people who don't. Some people have hands that sweat a lot, and a percentage of those have very acidic sweat, so it's often not long before even a brand new bridge starts to corrode and go rusty. A roller bridge for that type of person may not roll for very long if they aren't constantly cleaning it. For others with dry hands, and who give their guitars a going-over with a duster after use, may well get many many years of use from one.

"As for the problems with roller bridges I guess it comes down to if you don't like something you just make up stuff to justify your bias". Do not ever accuse me of making things up again. I'm just relating my and other peoples experiences and what I believe to be technical facts. I've got no idea what bits you thought I made up, but I only ever want to know the truth about how these things work. Try looking at other people's points of view, rather than dismissing things out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

...You and I may look after out guitars, but there is a large percentage of people who don't. Some people have hands that sweat a lot, and a percentage of those have very acidic sweat, so it's often not long before even a brand new bridge starts to corrode and go rusty....

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I feel that you may have been talking about me. Is that narcissistic? ;-)

For more general consumption...

There is a ton of myth and bias in the guitar world. If there weren't, Guitar World could not get away with pushing $70 guitar cables. One thing I have found very beneficial on this forum is that when a controversial issues is raised, for the most part, people respond with their reasoning and sources. I think that Simon's explanations are sometimes lengthy in order to provide enough detail so that one gets an idea of *why* do something rather than just *what* they should do. An explanation is not an indoctrination. One can offer an alternative explanation or approach. One can offer evidence that is supportive or to the contrary. And I think that is, for the most part, what happens here. No one is forced to believe anything. People regularly question approaches and orthodoxy and give their reasons and evidence. That is welcome here and part of healthy discussion.

That said, I think it is important to remember that everyone here is a volunteer. Ad hominem comments, direct or implied, are not helpful to discussion or community. For my part, I have found the current discussion interesting, particularly since I have never used a roller bridge. Less helpful are comments that challenge the intent or veracity of the poster. Not all posts are laser focused on the build at hand, but may be useful to other members, in this case, like me. I think it's best to treat all posts as sincere attempts to provide something of value.

Simon where did I say anything about you? If you are offended due to you feeling I directed what I said to you then I feel sorry but you did say that Luthiers you know complained about roller bridges becoming less than perfect due to dirt and gunk building up. I did say that this was due to poor house keeping rather than the design of the bridge. No where did I put a name to this comment.

Most of my Luthier friends, while having great skills, are very biased if you don't use the same gauge strings or the same brand of anything on a guitar and that is what was meant by that part of my reply. I would rather use what I want to use because I know how to use Google and Youtube than listen to someone who is using misinformation and lies to direct me to think their way rather than adapting to what I want to do due to what I have experienced while building guitars and what I used to do for a living.

I have done things to guitars that I was advised not to do because that isn't the way it is done but it worked out fine. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work for me.

New bridge post are off centre to existing, will make a drill guide for it and try to fit. Also found the ground wire broke off during fitting clean brake from the solider bit have to wrap bare wire and press fit under the ring this time.

What did the ground wire break off of? It generally would not be soldered at the string side. If it broke on the wiring harness side...been there and done that ;-)

I had a couple of wires break away from the pots, I ended up doing a complete resolder on everything, tucked everything up so no dangelies and used heat shrink to protect from shorts. Probably overkill but everything is working so I no complain.

Heatshrink is good. Always better to be safe than sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jetblack

I had a couple of wires break away from the pots

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When this happens to me it's often because I did not tin the wire and the pot. Or because I needed a third hand. Best $5 I ever spent ;-)

I've just come across this YouTube channel with lots of tips on soldering. It's mainly for PCBs, but the lessons taught can be applied to most soldering tasks. Warning - strong east-London accent with lots of dropped 'g's at the end of words.

https://www.youtube.com/@mrsolderfix3996

This one on de-soldering was a definite revelation. https://youtu.be/Vou2xlJkuoU?si=GILh5CrJnwkRI4QZ

What got to me was how easy everything went with a hot iron and the application of some liquid flux. So I'm eagerly waiting for my liquid flux to arrive to see if it does make a big difference. There are various types of flux available, so I'd look for the "no-clean" type. It doesn't mean that there's nothing there to clean up afterwards (as there is), but you don't have to clean it up. Some fluxes are acidic and if left behind, will eat away at the copper.

I just built a baritone out of an old strat knock off body (my son's first electric guitar) and a cheap replacement neck I found on e-bay. Put in a lot of effort but also learnt a lot. Yes, when finished it refused to intonate. I removed the springs from the saddle screws and moved the saddles all the way but still achieved little. It came to me suddenly. When I measured the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge line, it was off by about 8mm!!! no less. I thought about moving bridge, but this would effect the tone. Pups should be where they are in respect to the bridge. Plus the esthetics and the work involved etc. So I thought I'll move the neck up instead. I drilled the new holes in the neck's hill, remounted it higher and lo and behold. Perfect tune and intonation.

Also, just an advice, when solder ground, do not solder it to pots. It's messy and it will fall off. Use solder lugs. Guitartrade.com.au sells them. Also line cavities and pickguards with copper tape, that way you'll only ever need one lug.

I generally use a single solder lug on a screw to ground the cavity tape.

I have thought about using something like this terminal strip to avoid making too many connections on the back a pot:

https://www.solomusicgear.com/produc...h2kLCGPEhq9wlw

My G&L came with a couple of them.

Now I usually just run a thin wire from the ground lug of the volume pot. It's good for adding grounds to the volume pot without soldering them all directly to the pot casing. An alligator clip on either side of the new connection as a heat sink keeps the other connections from melting. Not as elegant as the terminal strip, but effective.

12th fret center to the bridge adjusters is where you want it, I usually wind the adjusters back till they are just equally faced off with the adjuster screw then make the mark for the scale before setting the bridge. Some like to wind the adjusters further in but as long as the scale is inline with the adjusters then that is fine.

Ok, bad news first still have the same issue bridge height, didn't take into account post height prior to fitting so I have a 9mm height at the base of the neck. Solution, have the original neck from the kit so I'm going to cut the heal end off and use it as a shim, funds have dried up for this build so I'm using what's on hand to fix this.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Ok, bad news first still have the same issue bridge height, didn't take into account post height prior to fitting so I have a 9mm height at the base of the neck. Solution, have the original neck from the kit so I'm going to cut the heal end off and use it as a shim, funds have dried up for this build so I'm using what's on hand to fix this.

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why don't you just get a 1 degree shim from ebay? Or 1.25 degree. They're like $5. Maybe a bit more. That should do it. You are using a TOM bridge on a tele. That'd never work in the first place. A Gibson designed piece of kit for angle-necked guitars on a Fender guitar that was designed with a straight neck. It's like dog mating with a turtle.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Ok, bad news first still have the same issue bridge height, didn't take into account post height prior to fitting so I have a 9mm height at the base of the neck. Solution, have the original neck from the kit so I'm going to cut the heal end off and use it as a shim, funds have dried up for this build so I'm using what's on hand to fix this.

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Sounds like you may need to revisit Simon B's post #33.
https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post226163

I would think that cutting a shim from the original neck will be quite difficult! I would use hard plastic like Simon suggested.

Speaking of Simon...You can also make an wedge shaped shim out of veneer. Each layer of veneer is 0.6mm. Figure out how tall it needs to be at bridge-ward screws and then taper until you get to the nut-ward screws. I found it hard to figure out the exact angle I needed, and this let me experiment with different angles without breaking the bank.

Years ago when Simon suggested one of the MANY uses of veneer in woodwork and luthiery, I bought a 1x2 foot piece. I have used it many many times since spending about $5 on it, and still have most of it. This is one of them ;-)

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Originally Posted by PaulFromSydney

why don't you just get a 1 degree shim from eBay?

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Have already tried this, it reduced the height by 2mm leaving a good 7mm. The issue is with the neck pocket, it had been matched to the provided neck and I sanded down the baritone neck to suit the angle. I have already cut the piece and sanding it down to suit the height but my next problem is the screw length, through the body and shim piece they are barely coming through, at 45mm length I'll have to resort to standard wood screws for fitting, another trip to Bunnings.

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Originally Posted by fender3x

Speaking of Simon...You can also make an wedge shaped shim out of veneer. Each layer of veneer is 0.6mm.

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I would need 16 layers of this just to break even, a solid block is more desirable.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Have already tried this, it reduced the height by 2mm leaving a good 7mm. The issue is with the neck pocket, it had been matched to the provided neck and I sanded down the baritone neck to suit the angle. I have already cut the piece and sanding it down to suit the height but my next problem is the screw length, through the body and shim piece they are barely coming through, at 45mm length I'll have to resort to standard wood screws for fitting, another trip to Bunnings.

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these bridges are made for 4 degrees neck angle. So add more shims.

or just give it up and get a mustang bridge. They were specifically designed by Fender for trem fitted Fender guitars.

I was thinking that you could use the veneer to make a wedge. You wouldn't need the bridge end to be as high with a wedge as you would with a platform...assuming that I am picturing this right in my head, which I am not at all sure I am doing. If you need the strings to be 9mm higher at the bridge that is too much for a wedge. You'd need an angle of 5 degrees or more if I am doing the math right.

If you have created a piece out of maple that solves the problem your way is best! When you get a chance, maybe you could send a pic. I'd be curious to see how it looks. I sometimes feel that my builds have been a series of problem solving events. It seems to happen most when you are building something that is not exactly like a Fender or Gibson like yours. The payoff is that it will be truly unique when you're done.

We don't have Bunnings here, but we have big box stores that sell hardware. I have learned the hard way not to use anything but high quality stainless steel screws, even if I have to order them. I generally toss out the kit screws for something better....since you are changing the screws out anyway.

Attachment 44856

Attachment 44857

Attachment 44858

Are those pictures with the shim in?

FWIW, the nut seems way too high! But that can be solved later.

These are picture of it without anything in the pocket, straight to neck. I tried again with the shim kit I bought off eBay, it only improved to about 7mm so this is where the block from donner neck comes in. I'm at a loss to how to move forward, if I buy more shims the angle will increase but if I transpose the angle it can be reduced, although how many shims will I be putting into the pocket to correct this? :confused:

Once again I'm at a loss more parts means more money, of which I have nothing. The block does correct the issue but it is too large and at an angle which I'll have to correct with sanding down. Part of me wishes I never have bought this kit but on the other hand if it is finished and works correctly it will be one of kind, my very own baritone.

Try Simon's credit card (or any hard plastic, even thick card should work!) solution. You may need to have 2 (or 3) layers. For 2 layers, Cut a strip of card to fit into the end of the pocket and be just over half the length of the pocket long (about 4 cm). For the next layer cut the card to fit the end of the pocket and be about 1.5 cm long. So, when in position they create a sequence of steps to rotate the neck angle around the top of the neck pocket. If you can lift the end of the neck by about 2 mm, the headstock will drop by about 8 mm - which hopefully will be enough.

I have needed to shim the neck of a couple of my builds - and I always used strips of plastic. Not fancy, but it worked.

Out of interest, what type of eBay shim do you have?

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

Out of interest, what type of Ebay shim do you have?

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https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/26631770...mis&media=COPY

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/26631770...mis&media=COPY

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Was it the 1 degree shim?

The pictures make things a lot clearer. I think I see a potential solution that is not expensive, but may be time consuming.

If I am seeing this right, the neck would be just about right if you had a Tele or hard-tail-strat bridge. You have a Fender neck, and Fender pocket. You have Gibson style pups and a Gibson LP style TOM bridge. The TOM bridge sits much higher than a Fender bridge would.

What would fix it is a block sitting between the neck and the bottom of the pocket. I don't think it should be angled or wedge shaped. Just a plain block. The block will need to be pretty thick, maybe around a centimeter or even a pit more. It will need to be shaped so that it fits the neck pocket pretty much exactly.

If it were me I'd rough out the block out of something like poplar or basswood. Something cheap, tight grained and easy to work. You'll need to get longer screws as well.

Once you have everything you need to mount the neck, I would try to do a setup on everything but the nut, using a capo at the first fret. If you can get it set up to the point where it feels about right with the capo in place, I'd paint the block's visible sides, put it in place and do the nut setup.

OTHER things you might try...

You may be able to find a low profile tune-o-matic made for Tele's with Bigsby style trems. They exist, but I had trouble finding one, and that may mean they are expensive.

Another simple approach might be to find a Telecaster "short bridge" that you can cut slots in with a rotary tool so that the strings can go to your trem. You'd have to figure out what to do about the holes where the posts were, but there are several options for that, particularly on a solid finish guitar.

But I'd try the block first, since it's the cheapest ;-)

You should not give up. It will be a cool and unique guitar, and one way or another this problem is probably solvable without breaking the bank!

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

These are picture of it without anything in the pocket, straight to neck. I tried again with the shim kit I bought off eBay, it only improved to about 7mm so this is where the block from donner neck comes in. I'm at a loss to how to move forward, if I buy more shims the angle will increase but if I transpose the angle it can be reduced, although how many shims will I be putting into the pocket to correct this? :confused:

Once again I'm at a loss more parts means more money, of which I have nothing. The block does correct the issue but it is too large and at an angle which I'll have to correct with sanding down. Part of me wishes I never have bought this kit but on the other hand if it is finished and works correctly it will be one of kind, my very own baritone.

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wow, your nut is stratospherically high. Shave it off at the bottom. The string height at the first fret shout be .020 over low E and .010 over high E. This is regardless of what you do with the bridge or neck relief or anything. If you press 3rd fret, there should be very little movement at the 1st, barely noticeable. Then make sure your neck is straight, there is 0 relief. Then I would get the mustang bridge instead. another 20-25 bucks you'd need to fork out unfortunately.

another thing you can do is to drill bigger diameter holes under the studs to sink them lower. I've seen that done

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Originally Posted by PaulFromSydney

wow, your nut is stratospherically high. Shave it off at the bottom. The string height at the first fret shout be .020 over low E and .010 over high E. This is regardless of what you do with the bridge or neck relief or anything. If you press 3rd fret, there should be very little movement at the 1st, barely noticeable. Then make sure your neck is straight, there is 0 relief. Then I would get the mustang bridge instead. another 20-25 bucks you'd need to fork out unfortunately.

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Yeah, the nut looks high, but when doing a setup the nut is either the last or next-to-last thing to adjust. That is particularly the case here, because the action is high everywhere. The first thing to address to get the height correct at the bridge. Since the stock bridge will not adjust lower, if you are going to use it, you have to raise the neck first.

But the point Paul is raising is a good one. It's the reason for putting a capo between the nut and first fret while you get the action at the bridge sorted. The capo takes the nut out of the equation. Next step will to be to get the truss rod set. Then you can address the action at the nut using the method Paul suggests or by cutting the slots deeper or both.

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another thing you can do is to drill bigger diameter holes under the studs to sink them lower. I've seen that done

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That could be done, but I'd be inclined to use longer screws first. Less invasive, and it's generally a good idea to replace the stock screws (that are cheap metal) with stainless steel anyway ;-)

Wilkinson makes a very cool replacement bridge (model WBTBR3) for Teles that might solve your problem without a shim.

https://wilkinsondirect.com/collecti...alist-bridges/

It has individually adjustable saddles, roller saddles, and a low back to work with a trem. I often like Wilkinson because they are generally good quality at a reasonable price...but in this case it's about $200 US. You could make a lot of shims for $200 so if it were me, I'd still shim. The good parts about starting with a shim are that they are an easy fix and all other approaches are still open to you afterwards if you don't like the result.

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Originally Posted by fender3x

Yeah, the nut looks high, but when doing a setup the nut is either the last or next-to-last thing to adjust.

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I do it first. Set and forget so to say. Then I go as per TRAIN system and never go back to nut. But I guess it can be done at any time.

I strongly advise against cutting dipper slots in the nut. Only if you 100% know what you're doing and have done a million nuts before. The shape of the cut, its angle etc are super important. It's part of the whole playability and tone equation (or coupling as pros call it). I use actual strings, short pieces of them glued to paddle pops' edges, to slightly deepen the wound strings slots if they are too shallow and can potentially pop off.

I just compared the bridge heights. Tunomatic bridge has 15mm from bottom to saddle top, Mustang has 9mm. Tells you everything you need to know. These design features are there for a reason. Leo arrived at these figures after a long and careful research. Some people think they know better. Oh well. I find that yes, you can fiddle with the original design and sort of make it all work by cutting, shimming, trimming etc. But it will inevitably effect tuning stability, playability and possibly even your tone.

an interesting book to read about guitar design I would recommend "electric guitar and bass design". The guy really knows his stuff

I have a non pitbull guitar without the longer bari neck with a roller bridge and imitation bigsby and it works fine. Yours can work as is with one slight adjustment but you need to make a measurement before changing anything.

Either remove the nut or put a capo on so the strings sit on the first fret. This just makes it like when it is in playing situation and makes the next part more life like. Remove the 2 adjustment screws from under the bridge and let the bridge rest on the inserts or the body. If the string height is right or the strings are resting on the neck then all is needed is to recess the inserts into the body by recessing where the head touches the body by using a Forstner bit or carving it out by hand.

Use a piece of dowel you used before to plug the hole and this will give the bit a centre to locate so it doesn't wander while drilling. You can adjust the diameter of the dowel by putting it in a drill and using sand paper or a file to reduce the diameter so it fits in the hole. The depth will be the thickness of the insert head above the body and the thickness of the screw part that the bridge sits on, maybe around the 5mm mark. If need be you could remove a little bit of material off the bottom of the bridge to allow it to go even lower. Just use a piece of sandpaper or wet and dry and rub the bottom to allow it to sit lower.

If this works then it is the simplest solution and if it needs a little bit extra you can use the shim to give you what you need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZUD9yafxMlo

a fairly standard practice

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Originally Posted by PaulFromSydney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZUD9yafxMlo

a fairly standard practice

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On a solid body this would be the simplest and cheapest way to do it if one has a router. It's a simple shape. I would be a little Leary of doing it on a semi-hollow. Not sure how it would be with a Tele thinline, but with other kit semi-hollows that center block is not much wider than the post holes...and sometimes even the post holes break through. It would also be necessary to finish the hole...but that's probably not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by fender3x

On a solid body this would be the simplest and cheapest way to do it if one has a router. It's a simple shape. I would be a little Leary of doing it on a semi-hollow. Not sure how it would be with a Tele thinline, but with other kit semi-hollows that center block is not much wider than the post holes...and sometimes even the post holes break through. It would also be necessary to finish the hole...but that's probably not a big deal.

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In fact if you order a Fender style body from Warmoth and select TOM bridge, the page automatically draws the routed groove for you, no matter if it's a semihollow or any other body.

I can only relate my experience with VERY narrow center blocks from PB and the Fretwire...and add to that what I have read from other builders on this forum. YMMV, but I think it would be unwise to equate Warmoth kits with normal kits. I have my reservations about Warmoth, but a cheap body from them is more than the cost of most full kits.

I would not route on a semihollow from PB without taking some VERY careful measurements...which are hard to do through the F-hole. You don't have to do much of a search of the forum to encounter post holes that have broken through into the hollow space on the sides of the centerblock. I am personally 2 for 2 on this score, and that's just for the post hole, not for accommodating the full width of the TOM bridge.