Sorry I said half a cent, I meant 50 cents, half a semitone.
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Sorry I said half a cent, I meant 50 cents, half a semitone.
Half a semitone is a lot to be out. First, are you sure you intonated at the 12th fret (using the 11th or 13th has been done before). The nut being high can mess things up a bit but not normally by that amount. And the frets would have to be a long way out of position to be that far out, and they don't look it.
But the kit strings are utter rubbish and of variable thickness and output and are only good for basic set-up like action and nut slot depth when you are taking them on and off a lot and it saves spoiling a good set of strings. Always do the intonation with a good set of strings fitted.
To adjust the nut, you either need a set of nut files, or you need to remove the nut and sand the bottom down and put it back again. (and repeat until the nut is at the right height). Good nut files are expensive (a worthwhile investment if you work on several guitars though), so filing down the bottom of the nut is the normal route without them.
Tapping lightly from either end using a hammer and a largish flat blade screwdriver is my normal method of nut removal. they should be help in by a smear of PVA glue which stick well to the wood but not the plastic. You can also tap lightly from the headstock side of the nut, but don't tap towards the headstock as it's very easy to break off the end of the fretboard holding the nut in place.
You'll need to clean out the old glue from the slot. I normally use a mixture of a sharp blade and a needle file.
I wouldn't glue the nut back in place until you've done all your set-up adjustments and are 100% sure the nut is the right height. String tension will keep it in place and I normally loosen the strings off, smear the nut bottom and the slot sides with a little PVA or Titebond, slide the nut back in press it down, remove excess glue with a wet cloth or paper towel, then replace and tighten the strings to clamp the nut in place whilst it dries. Just make sure the nut is centred properly so it's not sticking out of the slot on one side of the other - but you should find that the strings centre the nut on their own.
Thanks, adjusting the nut doesn't sound as hard as I thought it would be. How do I decide what height the nut should be?
For reference here is how high it is now:
https://i.imgur.com/JvokOPU.jpg
If you can zoom in it looks like it's just over 3mm to the bottom of the string.
Another question, I had the bridge up around 5mm from the body and the strings were still touching at the bottom of the neck, even with the saddles quite high, any ideas what could be wrong there?
I've only just noticed this thread.
I've built a left-handed Jazz Bass and a left handed Strat.
Both of them had badly aligned neck mounting holes, and both had Log-types pots wired back to front, which basically magnifies the problems you have with linear pots.
As far as I know, no other manufacturer of Left Handed guitars does this, so I don't know where they got that from.
Regarding the tremolo claw mounting screws, I found the ones that they supplied with the Strat kit were totally unfit for purpose. Maybe the original Fender screws they copied from just aren't good enough for the softer basswood.
I substituted some much thicker stainless steel screws from one of those "handy hardware" packs I bought at Aldi.
I ground the head diameter down with my bench grinder and they fitted nicely.
I followed the setup instructions on Fender's website and it just doesn't go out of tune.
I understand that main source of problems with those is simply people not setting them up correctly.
I went to the trouble of making up a wooden strain relief block for doing string replacements, and it's quite easy if you know what you're doing.
I don't actually use the tremolo arm much, I just like the sound you get from a floating bridge.
And yes, it took me a while to work out how the bridge is fitted. Basically it balances on "tiptoe":)
I use nut files, so cut down rather than sand the bottom of the nut, and I also cut down using my eye and experience as to the right height (and often cut too low so I've got a good stock of spare nuts). But I'd use feeler gauges to measure the height of the first fret, and add 0.4mm on top of that. The base of the nut needs to be sanded down so the nut slots are that distance from the fretboard. Just use the two E string slots, the rest will take care of themselves.
That will give you a reasonable string height over the first fret, but you can probably go a bit lower if you want. But don't take it lower before you've got the action and neck relief sorted out.
As to the bridge height, what sort of neck relief is there? I'd start off with the neck set flat, as string tension will add some bow to it, raising the strings up slightly.
Are the body neck screw holes big enough to just pass the screws through without them binding on the sides and needing screwing down? They should only screw into the neck itself in order to fully pull the neck flat into the bottom of the pocket. If you have to screw through the body and neck, there's a good chance that the screw can't turn further because its all the way into the body, but there's still a gap between the neck and the body. This gap will change the neck angle and if it's at the body end of the pocket, will raise the neck angle requiring a higher bridge position.
Also check for any splinters or other small objects in the neck pocket. It doesn't take much for the neck not to sit flat and change its angle.
Once you get the neck flat and it seated properly in the pocket, then run a long metal straight edge along the neck and see how much height there is between it and the body at the bridge position. A photo of the bridge alongside a ruler would be nice to get an idea of how tall it is.
As has been said by others, the 2-point bridges are a bit different to the vintage 6-screw types, and the bridge plate does sit a bit off the body, allowing it to float. But maybe 2-3mm rather than 5mm off. But you can also raise the individual saddle heights as well.
If the neck angle is very wrong and the bridge needs to go very high, then the options are 1) put a shim under at the neck end of the pocket (easy to do) or 2) modify the pocket or the neck heel to adjust its angle (harder). I'd always suggest doing 1) first to work out how big an increase or decrease in angle you need. I normally use a 10mm x neck width piece of veneer as a shim, though any hard material will do. A shim at the body end of the pocket is invisible, but any sizeable shim at the neck end of the pocket will be visible, so you may want to think about altering the heel angle or pocket floor angle instead.
Just realise that a small shim has a much larger effect on the neck angle than you may think. Depending on the neck pocket length it's between a 4:1 or 5:1 increase, so a 0.5mm shim can lower (or raise) the string height at the bridge by 2mm-2.5mm.
Love that headstock shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarro_2783
Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
Hi jarro.
I also use nut files for all my nut action adjustment and have a slightly different approach than Simon but his advice is solid.
Presuming you don't have nut files, I addressed the issue of nut height adjustment by sanding the bottom of the nut in another thread recently, and being lazy, I've just copied & pasted the reply I posted there:
FWIW, I just measured one of my strats with a 2-point vibrato on it, and the bottom of the bridge plate is 3mm above the body with the fulcrum points and "knife edge" adjusted accordingly. I have the spring tension adjusted so the bridge plate is parallel to the body (I also have a stop shim, but that's not relevant here). My string action is right where I like it - bass E: 1.75mm and treble E: 1.5mm at the 17th fret.Quote:
re: the nut, yes, you can adjust it from the bottom. You need to be careful to not sand an angle in the "front to back" direction.
You may wish to put a slight angle on the E to E direction so that the bass E is higher than the treble E.
When you sand, don't do it freehand. Use a block that you know to be flat, placed on a bench/table and put the sandpaper on that working the nut across the sandpaper. A plate of glass makes a good flat surface for doing this, and you can sticky tape the sandpaper so it doesn't slide around too.
When you measure the nut action, you want to depress the string at the 3rd fret and measure the clearance from the bottom of the string and the 1st fret. Since you won't be adjusting each individual string height, just measure the two E strings presuming the nut slots are radiused from the factory. The best way to measure this is with feeler gauges.
As a rough guide, you want the bass E to be .010" - .008" and the treble E .006" - .004" (at 1st fret, string depressed at 3rd).
As Simon has pointed out there are a number of ways to gain or lose a couple mil if needed, but I would check all the things he mentioned first and not get too hung up on it in this stage of the build. I don't think it's anything that can't be addressed in the final set up. That's one of the good things about screw-fixed necks, you can always take them off to make adjustments or modifications.
Thanks all, I'll play around with the nut first, and it looks like I have more saddle adjustment room than I thought. Pushing the string down at the 3rd fret there is definitely more than 1mm just eyeballing it, so I'll start there.
A couple of other problems: I keep breaking the wires at the solder points, I'm going to run out of wire at this rate, so I'll have to find some more to extend it, some of that shrink wrap I bought years ago might help here too. I also plugged it in to see how it sounds and ironically the humbucker makes the most buzz. The volume pot is also buzzy when it isn't on full.
Buzz is more likely to be coming from devices like LED lights or TV sets on standby.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarro_2783
I have a 40" LCD TV mounted above my workbench and I have to turn that off at the power point if I want to work on audio equipment.
The easiest way to track down sources of interference like is just with a portable AM radio tuned to a distant station.
I do have a large fluoro directly overhead, maybe that did it.
That sort of buzz is often down to simply having the output jack connections crossed over, but can also be down to a missing (or very bad) ground connection somewhere in the wiring.
If nothing is obvious, then take some pictures of the wiring and we'll see if we can spot anything wrong.
My multimeter is giving me a connection where there shouldn't be one on the posts of the switch. I'll try to track down where it has gone wrong.
Actually I just realised that a connection across those posts is expected. The two pickups are grounded together, so I'm effectively measuring resistance across two of the pickups, which apparently is about 12k.
So I'm back to a mystery buzz with no idea about where it's coming from.
Have you tried moving your guitar and amp to a different location in the house?Quote:
Originally Posted by jarro_2783
Turns out that having the strings on and getting the bridge flat makes a big difference to where the saddle sits, so I think the neck angle is fine. Getting the nut down has made a huge difference to the first few frets and it's only about 15 cents out, which is about as much as my Maton, so that's a win.
The kit strings sure are rubbish, the top two have broken already. I'll put the good strings on and keep working on the final setup.
I think the cheap amp I have is buzzy, so that won't help either. I'll try plugging it in somewhere else before I get too concerned.
I'm getting close to done, I noticed that the string tee posts are different sizes, is this wrong?
https://i.imgur.com/WLHPH3Z.jpg
The tuning pegs go in at the same height, so it seems strange that they are different.
Also how is the shielding on this? I wasn't sure how much I needed to cover and whether a few gaps is ok
https://i.imgur.com/U4GYLby.jpg
The string trees are installed in a staggered manner, with the B/E string tree set forward of the D/G string tree (if you actually need to install that one). The B/E string tree uses the taller of the two posts. The D/G string tree being further back, needs to be lower to achieve the same string angle over the nut. The B/E string tree is almost always needed, but I'd wait and see if you need to fit the D/G one. It's better not to fit string trees if you can avoid it as they are another source of friction which can affect tuning stability. It mainly depends on the height between the face of the headstock and the bottom of the nut slot - the bigger the difference, the less likely you'll need a D/G string tree.
But it also depends on how you string up the tuners,how many turns you put on them and so how low the string leaves the post. The lower it leaves the larger the break angle over the nut.
If the D or G strings sound a bit weak or buzz when unfretted, then fit the string tree.
The shielding looks OK so far, but a) it needs connecting to ground and b) the underside of the scratchplate also needs covering in foil to create a lid on the cavity. But it in doubt, add another bit of foil over any holes.
The grounded pots will ground the foil on the underside of the scratchplate (there's normally a small bit by the pots, but you want all the cavity covered). You'd normally run the foil up over the edge of the cavity so that it comes into contact with the foil on the underside of the scratchplate to ground it. With a metal control plate, you can just bring the foil up over the sides under that, making sure that you run some out to the screw hole positions so the two copper surfaces are held together firmly. But I prefer to bring the copper up all around the cavity, to guarantee a good tight fit of the 'lid' over the cavity.
Um, are you sure on this Simon: "The B/E string tree uses the taller of the two posts. The D/G string tree being further back, needs to be lower to achieve the same string angle over the nut." That's going to give you a much more extreme break angle for the D/G strings.
I am half-correct. D'oh! (Thanks, Drew).
The D/G tree goes further forward than the B/E tree, not the other way around (like wot I wrote).
Typically on a Fender, the B/E is just behind the location of the A tuner, the D/G is just in front. The kit headstocks tend to have a longer distance between the nut and the first tuner than a standard Fender, so the trees can come forward a little bit from a practical sense, but visually, they are best left looking like a standard Fender
A quick sketch (absolutely not to scale) shows why the furthest forward tree has the tallest post in order to get the string break angles similar
Attachment 41537
Most string tree posts have less of a comparative height difference than your kit posts. Your small one is about 1/2 the height of the tall one, whereas the small one is typically around 2/3 the height, so you may want to space the posts slightly further apart than I've suggested. I'd start with locating the B/E string tree, and then experiment (with the D/G strings slackened off a bit) for the position of the other string tree so that the string angles to the nut are similar.
That makes sense thanks. I was assuming that the hole in the tuning peg mattered, but it sounds like it is the angle with the nut that matters.
Back to the neck, my screws have too much thread in them, so they do indeed stop screwing when they are all the way into the body. Should they have sent me screws with a longer smooth section at the top?
This is a common issue on almost all bolt-on neck kits and a lot of assembled guitars as well.
The holes in the body need to be drilled out to the same diameter as the screw, so that the screw slides in firmly, but can still be easily rotated. The screws can then fully pull the neck down onto the body without the risk of any gaps due to the screws not being able to turn further in the body. This is standard good woodworking practice and this method should be used whenever you use screws to hold two pieces of wood together. In soft woods like pine, you can often get away with the same diameter pilot hole, especially if gluing and screwing, but only because the pine will compress and the screw head get pulled into the wood. You certainly don’t want that in this situation where the neck can be removed and refitted many times in its life, plus the metal plate stops the screws being pulled into the wood.
The final build is done, and I think it looks pretty good.
https://i.imgur.com/MaAJHzh.jpg
Drilling the neck holes a bit wider in the body seems to have pulled the neck in better. The height seems right now.
Now I just have to solve a few playability issues:
1. There is quite a buzz when I am not touching the strings. I'm not sure how to track down a bad earth, the multimeter says everything is connected when I touch various grounded points in the circuitry.
2. The intonation is still not great at the first 5 frets. The saddle position on the high E is back about 3mm which seems way too far from what I've read, so it sounds like something is still wrong. Maybe I didn't get the nut down far enough. I have a feeler gauge so I've been measuring everything, but maybe I got some numbers wrong.
I set the neck relief to 0.01mm at fret 7 when I hold down 1st and 21st frets.
The nut height gave me 0.02mm when holding down the 1st string at the 3rd fret. I think I read that 0.015 or even less is better.
3. The pickups seem too close to my fingers, what is the consensus on ideal pickup height?
Also the strings buzz at the nut on open notes, but I can't hear it through the pickup so I'm not sure if I should be too worried about that.
Hi Jarro, I'm liking the look of your guitar, good work.
I'm no expert, but I'll share what I would look at first and hopefully it will help
1. The noise problem. I think you may have an issue with your shielding. Since it is quiet when you are touching it, I think you are picking up noise that is external to the guitar. Simon made a few comments that are worth checking a few posts back. Firstly, make sure you have connected your shielding to earth, and secondly, make sure it goes high enough to connect to the shielding on the back of the scratch plate. If the shielding is working, it might address the noise.
2. I don't think I am following you completely in intonation, but it sounds like you are having issues with tuning of the first 5 frets. There might not be much you can do here, and let me explain my thinking. Intonation is normally set by comparing the 12th fret tuning to open tuning. If you have done this, and are finding the first 5 frets are out of tune, it might be worth re-checking the scale length and expected fret positions. I use the stewmac fret calculator, and you can see if the nut seems to be correctly positioned. My nut was leaned forward slightly and I filed it backwards ever so slightly to correct the scale length. Keep in mind though, guitars on the whole are not perfectly timed instruments and this is part of their charm. [emoji3]
3. Pickup height it a bit subjective, but as a rule of thumb, it is safer to be further away than too close. The closer you get, the more effect the magnets have on the string vibrations, and they can reduce sustain and affect the tone. Further away can result in a somewhat thinner tone, but there is more leeway on the far side of the equation
4. Open string buzz normally comes from not enough neck relief. 0.01mm over 300mm is really, really small (it is essentially flat). Maybe try adding a little more neck relief by backing off the truss rod a little. it's a quick adjustment and can be undone if necessary.
I hope this helps, it's worth fine tuning and adjusting thing, it takes a little time but it is well worth it for making a guitar feel great to play. [emoji3]
Are all the pickups buzzy, or just the single coils? Even with poor shielding, the humbucker should be a lot quieter.
Fluorescent lights give off a lot of electrical noise, so not a good idea to be close to one when playing almost any electric guitar.
Have you run a ground wire to the trem claw?
If you plug a lead in (the kit leads are awful and have very poor shielding, so best to throw that away and always use a decent lead) and connect a multimeter between the sleeve of the jack and the metal parts, do you have almost zero-ohms continuity? It's easy enough to get the two connections the wrong way round (I've done it fairly recently).
Does your amp have in internal or external PSU? The smaller battery/PSU powered amps often lack a system ground connection to earth, so shielding is ineffective. If it's got a captive or an IEC ('kettle') mains lead then that should be fine.
The first five frets are sharp by 10-15 cents, and more on the higher three strings, so it makes me think it is the string height causing them to stretch too much when pushed down. I checked the fret positions and they seem legit.
The only amp I have is the cheap one that comes in a squier kit, but it has an earth. I've also gone straight into the line in on the computer. The squier doesn't buzz on either of those. The humbucker buzzes more so it seems like an earth problem rather than picking up noise.
Ah on second thoughts I just noticed that the nut is a tiny bit twisted, and leaning slightly back. I wonder if that makes enough of a difference to the scale length that the frets are out. I will try cleaning out the slot better to make sure there is no old glue in there and sand a bit more to see what I can do about that.
I think I solved the problem, the strings are actually touching at the back of the nut, increasing the scale length by about 2mm, meaning the top frets are too far down, therefore sharp, and that explains how far back I need to put the saddles.
So I need to get the nut to lean backwards a bit, but I'm not sure the best way to do it.
Glad to hear you have found the culprit, now to fix it could be tricky.
If you have a set of nut slot files, you can re-file the slot so the bridge end is the high point. This is normally done in two parts, a shallow angle for the front of the nut and a steeper angle at the back to help guide toward the posts.
here's a fender video on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=racmaWTYvNg
If you cant correct this without lowering the string height too far, you will probably need to replace the nut and start again with the filing. This means carefully removing the nut, cleaning out the slot and shaping/installing a new nut.
I am hoping it can be fixed without having to go this far. :-)
I don't have nut files, I could probably do that if I did, maybe I should order some and cement the fact that I will have to build several more guitars :p
I don't see that I can slope the nut because it won't sit in the slot, so I don't think that's really an option. I already have the nut out from filing it down earlier, so that part is fine, it's just fixing this angle that's the problem. If I have to buy a new nut I need nut files anyway, so if anyone has any other DIY suggestions I'm all ears.
I wonder if it is a nut off a RH guitar that has been put in here. It would make sense that it is pivoting on the wrong side of the nut if this is the case. I'm not convinced that angling the nut will be a great solution, but it might improve it a little. I'd worry about having to increase the size of the slot, so that you are committed to always angling a nut, and then the scale will potentially always be out by a little bit. I see you are in Sydney, I can always lend you a set of files if it helps, buying things seems to take forever at the moment. :-)
Going by the slight angle of this nut I would say it looks like they put a righty one on backwards. I'll see what PBG think maybe they can send me a left-handed one.
+1 on Colin's comments. Basically, the kit nuts are generally rubbish. The bone nut upgrade is worth the small price, however the upgrade is not available for all kits. Definitely worth sourcing a bone nut or the TUSQ mentioned above if you can't get a suitable version from PB. I don't know the specs of the JM-1 so I don't know if a standard F-style nut will just slot straight in there and it seems the only bone nuts on PB that are specifically for lefties is for a bass.
It's never too late to learn to play right-handed. :-)
I think I've solved the buzz. Most of it went away when I put a strip of tape across the underside of the pickguard, and made sure it touched on both sides. But I ran out of tape to fully cover it, and even so had to put a bit of aluminium foil in to fill in a gap. But as soon as that seal was made the buzz dropped drastically.
I'm not sure if covering it more will reduce the buzz even more. I'm not sure if all guitars just have a little bit of buzz or if it's actually possible to get it near zero.
My local shop has a TUSQ nut in stock for $14, so if PBG don't get back to me with one I think I will just go and get that. I will have solved all the problems except for the trem not returning to the exact same spot. But it sounds like Colin couldn't get that to work from his build either.
At 33 after playing guitar since I was 5 I feel like it is waaay too late to play right handed :P I feel like a complete beginner with a cramped left hand every time I try.
Thanks I'll try that when it's all setup. PB are sending me a bone nut and kindly sending me some more tape since they saw that I ran out.
Apparently all the left-handed nuts PB have are actually right-handed :p so I ended up getting a TUSQ nut from my local shop for $15. Unsurprisingly all the problems are fixed, there is no buzz and all the frets are in tune.
I'll post some pictures when I've finished the final setup and put the strap plugs on. I'll try to do a video at some point too.
Awesome! glad to hear everything is now sorted out and you can enjoy the fruits of all your hard work.
I got it from the guitar factory Penrith. https://guitarfactorypenrith.com.au/
I was surprised they had one in stock, but they said they can order most stuff in too.
Thanks Jarro,
Lefty here also... Two years ago I gave up after ordering 3 different nuts that were no good. Might have to try it again!