If it's that much of a concern, you can always use a sheet of maple veneer.
cheers, Mark.
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If it's that much of a concern, you can always use a sheet of maple veneer.
cheers, Mark.
**I do keep my guitars hanging on the wall, so I'm a little uncertain about the "flat" treble side, but the Hercules hangers I've got do swivel, and the Internet tells me that should make it all fine. And who am I to doubt the wisdom of the Internet [emoji3] **
It is always good to have some healthy scepticism when someone tries to sell you on their idea's, but if it swivels I'd say you'd be fine, although I would be mindful of the guitar not being able to turn sideways as you don't have a lot of meat on the headstock[emoji108]
In addition to the maple veneer, I bought a couple of headstock veneer sheets from ebay for +/-13$.
re: tuner screw holes - I think you'd have great difficulty making plugs out of the maple off-cut unless you have 3mm plug cutter. I'm sure such a tool exists. Making evenly round plugs by hand, I wouldn't even want to contemplate.
However, round toothpicks should work fine. Cut the tapered part of the toothpick off; A tiny bit of wood glue into the hole;tap the "plug" in and snip it off 1mm proud of the maple; sand the plug ends flat with the back of the headstock.
Round toothpicks are commonly made from birch, which is somewhat close in colour to maple.
They won't perfectly invisible, but it present a neat tidy job. If you're going to stain the neck at all, the end grain of the plugs will take the colour differently.
To me you're options are:
- Plugging as above
- Using the mounting plate
- Veneer as Mark suggested
Personally, I'm not that fussed about the plugs not being perfectly disguised, but that's you're call.
added:
another variation to the plug method would be to plug the hole part way with the wooden toothpick, leaving a couple of mm from the top, then filling the remainder of the hole with an appropriately coloured timber filler "crayon". You may be able to colour-match pretty closely. Then clear coating.
I just use wood filler for those sort of holes where they'll be on display and won't need to take a screw. Then I try and get the filler the same colour as the maple. There are products like this. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003OBX6...dDbGljaz10cnVl, though I normally use a spirit-based marker.
The holes will be smaller than 3mm diameter as that's the full screw diameter, so probably around 1.5mm-2mm.
The veneer idea works, but you then get a line along the edge of the headstock. A bit swings and roundabouts.
It's probably too late to suggest getting replacement tuners that use the same mounting holes.
Thanks, everyone -- that's a lot of great advice!
3mm plug cutters seem hard to come by, but I do have some flame maple veneer from a previous project.
Seems like the best option will be to cut the headstock first; then there will be some offcuts where I can drill some small holes and then try both Simon's suggestion of filler and McCreed's toothpick trick on it, then try a coat or two of the planned finish to see which is least visible. If both wind up being too obvious, then there's always the veneer or the mounting plate options to consider -- in my last veneer project I was able to disguise the line at the edge by using a nail file to bevel it, and it's pretty much invisible unless you look very close -- hat tip to Jeffrey Stephenson (who does amazing wooden computer cases) for that trick.
I had less time than planned this weekend, but was able to take the measurements after a dry fit of the neck and the body. These kits have the holes for the bridge screws pre-drilled:
Attachment 33593
Basically, the same as christodav's Purple Monster -- even down to what looks like a ding from tooling above and to the right of the centre bridge screw hole.
Nut to the crown of the 12th fret is bang on 324mm, like you'd expect.
However, in order to get 12th to the bride saddles OK, they need to be all of the way forward:
Attachment 33594
...that is the tips of the adjustment screws are basically flush with the saddles. Set like that, the middle and top saddles are within half a mil or so, measuring to the top of the saddle where the string will "leave" it:
Attachment 33595
The bass saddle has a shorter adjustment screw, though, so it's about 5mm off:
Attachment 33596
From what Simon has said elsewhere on the forum, it sounds like that *may* be OK. All intonation adjustments, if I understand correctly, are pretty much certainly going to be moving the bridge saddles away from the nut. My only concern is whether having a starting point of 5mm back is going to be too far for the two bass strings.
That's not a ding, that's the penetration (hole) for the bridge ground wire.Quote:
even down to what looks like a ding from tooling above and to the right of the centre bridge screw hole.
Doh! McCreed beats me to it hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by gpjt
cheers, Mark
I'll suggest a simple, non-invasive solution might be trying a longer screw on the E/A saddle.
I'm seeing your break point on the E/A at about 652mm, so it may be ok. The rest of the saddles look to be about the 643mm mark, which should be good. 646-649mm is where I usually find the sweet spot on those strings.
FWIW, I find the low E generally intonates between 648 and 651, but I've seen cases where it was way more, and the saddle is backed up as far as it will go. (I've even seen (on a strat) where the back end of the saddle had to be filed shorter and the spring removed just to get the E6 to intonate!)
The next, and probably most definitive solution, is to shift the bridge and route p/up cavity accordingly. IMO, I'd try a longer screw first.
I'm not sure the shorter screw wasn't a mistake. I've not seen a tele bridge (especially an import) that didn't have 3 equal length screws. May be it's just what was at hand during assembly.
EDIT: I just looked the pics in the PBG listing, and the E/A saddle screw is indeed shorter, I still think a longer one will get you where you need to be though if you're worried about it.
And it's always far more reliable to measure direct from the nut to the saddle, not from the 12th fret to the saddle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
D'oh indeed! I should have realised that the chances of two identical dings like that are pretty much zero :oQuote:
Originally Posted by king casey
That does make me wonder, though -- why do Tele-style bridges need a separate hole for grounding? Couldn't the ground wire to the bridge just be connected inside the pickup route? After all, it's all the same bit of metal.
(Makes perfect sense for a Tune-o-matic bridge or similar, of course.)
Unfortunately the only decent ruler I have is 600mm in length -- I'll double-check the numbers with my measuring tape, but that's bound to be off a mil or two in either direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
Based on the photos and my recollection of the camera angle (which was a bit crappy, sorry!) it's 324+328=652mm for the E/A, like you say, but 324+323=647mm for the top four strings. That seems surprisingly far back for the factory to have put the holes, but there we go.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
Am I understanding you correctly, that for the higher strings, sometimes you wind up having a smaller distance between the bridge and the twelfth fret than you do between the fret and the nut?
Nice idea about getting a longer screw! Presumably they're standard M-something ones that the local hardware shop will sell.
Sorta-kinda tempted to just wait for the tuners, put them on, then screw on the bridge, and then string it up and see what it needs, then move the bridge if necessary. The problem with that, though is that right now the screw holes that are there could probably be filled with glued-in dowels and then new screw holes drilled. But once a screw has gone into those holes, I'd be worried that doweling them won't give them enough strength to handle a new hole right next to them.
Quote:
... it's 324+328=652mm for the E/A, like you say, but 324+323=647mm for the top four strings.
My bad, I said 643, but I think the different direction of the ruler in the two pics threw me off. Nevertheless, 647 should be fine.Quote:
Am I understanding you correctly, that for the higher strings, sometimes you wind up having a smaller distance between the bridge and the twelfth fret than you do between the fret and the nut?
First, there are no magic concrete numbers for these things. Each instrument is going to be different and needs to be treated as such. Yes, there are staring points, but often the "sweet spot" will be greater or less than in some cases.
So, I have indeed seen higher strings that intonated short of the 648 mark, but also seen them at 649...
And like Simon said above, I measure from the nut not the 12 fret x 2 method. I will measure nut to 12th as a check to make sure there's nothing completely out of whack with the neck, but the bridge placement will ultimately be measured from the nut. A longer steel rule is a cheap but good investment.
They'll be M3 w/ 0.5 thread. I don't think you'll find them in you local hardware store, but I could be wrong. I know I haven't seen in a h/w store here (AUS). Try a local guitar shop or repairer, and they'd probably sell you one. If it were my shop, I'd give you one!.Quote:
Nice idea about getting a longer screw! Presumably they're standard M-something ones that the local hardware shop will sell.
If the dowels go in with a bit of resistance, they'll be fine IMO. They should be snug enough that you can't push in/pull out with your fingers. You should need to lightly tap them in (and not with a 3lb hammer!).Quote:
The problem with that, though is that right now the screw holes that are there could probably be filled with glued-in dowels and then new screw holes drilled. But once a screw has gone into those holes, I'd be worried that doweling them won't give them enough strength to handle a new hole right next to them.
Use decent wood glue and let them sit overnight before drilling into or next to them.
If you can't match a dowel to the existing hole size, it may require drilling out the holes an appropriate size to fit the next size up of dowel.
Thanks once again, McCreed! Hopefully I won't need to move the bridge, but if it does turn out to be necessary, at least I know what to do now. The good news is that it seems vanishingly unlikely that I'll have to move the bridge more than 10mm forward, so there's no harm in moving forward with finishing -- any work required will be underneath the bridge plate. Gotta love Teles :)
Anyhow, time to get the tools out and actually do some work on this thing! Coping
...not sure what happened there. What I meant to say was, "coping saw out"...
Here's the result after cutting off the bulk of the excess with the coping saw. As you can see, this isn't something I'm even remotely competent at...
Attachment 33706
However, half an hour with some 90-grit sandpaper and things are looking a little better:
Attachment 33707
And another half an hour with 150-grit, using both a deodorant can and my e-cigarette as sanding blocks for the concave curves, and the result is something I feel quite proud of!
Attachment 33708
Attachment 33709
Finally, a sanity check -- does the wall mount hold it?
Attachment 33710
Yup :)
A quick wipe down with white spirit to see if there are any glue spots and to check how the grain will look when oiled -- not clear from the photo but there are a couple of light glue marks near the control plate. Need to get something to remove that.
Attachment 33711
Excellent work.
Cutting maple with a coping saw is quite difficult.
(I gave up and just straight-cut the excess with a normal hand saw).
You are lucky though, in that those tuning holes are lined up quite well.
cheers, Mark.
Thanks! Good to hear that it wasn't *only* me being a bad workman that led to the messy first cut :o
I'm going to try using white vinegar to remove the glue marks once the white spirit has evaporated -- the Internet tells me that it works well on wood glue, and my other half uses it for pretty much all of our household cleaning so we've got 15 litres of the stuff knocking around. Worst case is that it won't work and I'll have to get something specialised.
If it's going to be covered up be a pickguard or neck plate, I wouldn't go too mad on absolute glue removal.
Glue marks are normally only an issue with veneered tops and its a bit strange that you've got some on a solid body. Of course the pieces making up the body have to be glued together, so there's always a chance that some of that wasn't wiped off properly. I'm also thinking that the acetic acid in the vinegar may possibly lighten/bleach the wood if a lot is used, so I'd try it in a pickup rout first before using it on the top in a visible location.
Nice work on the headstock BTW. You'll soon be making your own necks from scratch!
That's a lovely grain pattern in the ash.
Some contrasting grain filler will really bring it to life.
Thanks all!
The stains may not be glue -- they could be some kind of grease, perhaps? -- but unfortunately they will be visible -- maybe this photo shows them better:
Attachment 33723
Anyway, good call about the possibility of white vinegar bleaching the wood, Simon! I've swabbed some white vinegar into the bridge rout, and some rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl alcohol, no idea what the remainder is but hopefully water) into the neck rout. Will leave that overnight to make sure there's no damage, and if all is well then let's hope one or the other will lift the stains.
That's a bit of a head-scratcher to me. In the pic with the wet body, it does indeed look like two circular "stains", but the ultra close-up I can't see the circular pattern and they look more like grain anomalies.
If it is possibly an oil or grease (either is possible given there is machinery involved in their manufacture) maybe try scrubbing the spots with naptha and a stiff plastic bristled brush (something more aggressive than a toothbrush).
Alternatively, if you have an orbital sander, it may be worth trying to sand them out. If you do this, make sure you sand the whole top evenly so you don't end up sanding a divot in the problem area.
I'm really just throwing darts blindfolded...
I'm also thinking possible grain pattern here. I'd try and rough that area up a bit with maybe 120 grit paper, and see if it takes up the white spirit any better. White spirit itself will help remove any grease (if it is grease).
You know, you're probably right there -- it's probably some oddity in the grain. I was thinking that because it was rougher than the surrounding area, didn't take up white spirit, and was darker, that it must be something on top of the wood, but neither white vinegar nor rubbing alcohol had any effect. I'll see what happens after a bit of sanding. If it doesn't disappear, I'll call it spalting :)
I've been doing a bit of sanding on the neck; it's getting a nice feel to it. Is there any trick to sanding the fretboard between the frets for maple? Or just patience and a small thing to use as a sanding block? It's quite hard to sand with the grain on the narrower frets at the dusty end.
I reckon I'll have to live with the mismatched filler that's been used to disguise the tangs:
Attachment 33735
It looks to me like the maker nibbled off the tang at the ends of the frets, as if they were going in to a bound fretboard, and then put filler in to the resulting gaps. So sanding down won't reveal the metal tang, it will just uncover more filler. Especially for the fourth fret, which is at least a mil short on the treble side:
Attachment 33736
It's probably a bad sign for my bank balance and for the uneasy truce that exists between my other half and my tool collection that when I spotted that, my first thought was that it would be fun to try refretting the guitar at some point in the not-too-distant future...
I typically don't sand a (fretted) maple fretboard unless there is a problem (obvious rough spot, fret marker not seated properly, etc). If you feel you do need to, try hitting it with either a fine synthetic sanding pad or steel wool. (FTR, I never recommend or use steel wool, but that's just me and plenty of people do).Quote:
Is there any trick to sanding the fretboard between the frets for maple? Or just patience and a small thing to use as a sanding block? It's quite hard to sand with the grain on the narrower frets at the dusty end.
With s/w or sanding pad (extra fine-fine) you can go across the grain without leaving obvious whirls, and it won't gouge the frets like sandpaper will.
That's how it done. The tang is cut back even on non-bound fretboards. Usually only about 1 mm though. Just enough to securely hold some filler in there.Quote:
It looks to me like the maker nibbled off the tang at the ends of the frets, as if they were going in to a bound fretboard, and then put filler in to the resulting gaps.
That definitely is not the way it should be, but it may be ok. You'll have to see where the E6 string falls when you do you're alignment. Then decide if it's going to be a problem when playing. Worst case is replacing the one fret, but I wouldn't say you have to go that far yet.Quote:
Especially for the fourth fret, which is at least a mil short on the treble side:
The problem with just replacing one fret is getting a fretwire that matches the existing frets. Obviously you can measure the width and the height, which all helps to narrow the selection down, but the fret material itself can vary considerably, with differing hardness and things like copper content that can affect the colour. You'd also probably need to remove the fret first to measure the tang width, as these can vary a bit. You don't want to get a fret with a thinner tang or it will just fall out.
All good and valid points Simon. Hopefully he's not there yet.
I guess I forget not everyone has various sized bits & lengths of fret wire just kicking about in the shed...
I think I have a couple of small bits and that's it. Though I've now ordered a fretwire bender and some acoustic bridge clamps from China via Alibaba. With all the virus stuff going on, have to see how long it takes. I did order a couple of days before it all kicked off. If it ever arrives, then I'll have to have another go at fretting/re-fretting some necks.
I mentioned this another thread recently. I got my bender from Aliexpress (similar mob). It's excellent quality and looks identical to the one Stew-Mac sells for 3 times the price.Quote:
...I've now ordered a fretwire bender and some acoustic bridge clamps from China via Alibaba.
Hopefully yours arrives in a reasonable time.
Thanks for the advice, guys! Understood that clipped tangs and filler is a perfectly normal way to do a fretboard.
When I noticed the off-colour filler on the PBG neck I realised that I literally couldn't remember what the side of my old guitars' fretboards looked like, so checked my LPJ -- the only electric I have now -- and it doesn't have any visible filler, and what looks like the full height of the tang (1.5mm or so) is visible:
Attachment 33749
Then I checked a bunch of photos online of Tele fretboards, and they all looked like they were the same as the LPJ (though to be honest it's bloody hard to see -- photos of the sides of fretboards are surprisingly hard to find!). That, plus some vaguely-remembered Crimson Guitars videos had made me think that it was always visible-tang or bound
But now I know that there's another way, which happens to be the way this neck was designed. I *knew* this guitar-building lark was going to teach me stuff :)
The tuners I ordered are on their way, but it looks like they'll take a while. However, the Wudtone honey body finishing kit and the vintage yellow neck finish arrived today, so I decided to cut up some scrap timber and set things up so that I'll be able to hang the body from its neck rout and the neck from the heel so that they can dry without touching stuff. Lots of beeswax on the screws so that they went in and came out smoothly. Looks like it will work OK:
Attachment 33750
Apologies to anyone whose brain was crashed by the bathroom tiles, they were the landlord's choice.
Next, I thought about what might block applying the finish. The holes for the neck and the bridge are all pre-drilled. There are two possibilities:
1. The holes are in the right places, so I can start with the finish as soon as I've finished sanding down to 190.
2. The holes are in the wrong places, so I need to dowel them and re-drill before finishing.
The way I see it, the only way to find out the answer to that is to put the whole thing together pretty much completely. I don't need the new tuners for that, because while I will be fitting the E strings to check everything lines up (and to see whether that short fourth fret is an issue), the line that they follow will be determined by the nut and the bridge saddles.
So:
Attachment 33751
The fourth fret, while it bugs me a bit, looks like it won't be a problem for playing:
Attachment 33752
The neck fits in snugly:
Attachment 33754
I also realised that I'd been worrying over nothing about the bridge. When I did my measurements earlier, I'd moved the saddles far enough forward that there was no screw protruding from the "front" -- that is, the nut side -- of the saddle, and treated that as as far forward as it could go. But looking at it with strings on, it became clear that the bulk of the force on the saddle is downwards towards the body of the guitar -- with some toward the nut -- so it can be safely moved forward a bit so that the screw doesn't go all the way through, like the middle one here:
Attachment 33753
I'd still want a fair few threads inside the saddle -- it wouldn't do for it to be loose -- but that buys maybe 3mm, which should be ample given the numbers that McCreed posted earlier, unless there's something very odd about this guitar :) And if that happens, there's always the possibility of using longer screws.
BTW does that pickup look right to you guys? The camera angle sucks, but the bottom E is pretty much centred over the pole, but the top E is to the right of the centre of its pole -- maybe 80% of the way across. All of the bridge saddles are touching, so the strings are as close as they'll go, and the nut slots look like they're pretty much in the right places (and anyway the nut is miles away).
So, next steps before starting to apply the finish:
- Finish sanding down to 190
- Drill two holes the size of the tuner screw holes in the offcut from the headstock, and try McCreed's toothpick trick and Simon's suggestion of wood filler in them, the do a test finish to see which looks closest to what I want after a coat of the planned neck finish.
That's interesting. Of the 11 unbound neck guitars I own (a mix of production and built by me) none of them have exposed tangs. They consist of both rosewood and maple fretboards and include 1 acoustic and 1 bass.Quote:
Then I checked a bunch of photos online of Tele fretboards, and they all looked like they were the same as the LPJ (though to be honest it's bloody hard to see -- photos of the sides of fretboards are surprisingly hard to find!). That, plus some vaguely-remembered Crimson Guitars videos had made me think that it was always visible-tang or bound.
Also none of the necks are scratch built. They were all factory manufactured.
Any chance your LPJ was been re-fretted?
And, yes, those tiles would give seizures if I had to look at them for too long...
Yes, I used the same company you mentioned. Just got the Aliexpress name wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
The LPJ won't have been re-fretted. My 2013 Gibson Melody Maker LP has exposed tangs. As does my 2019 Maton EBG808TE acoustic and my PBG EX1 neck. Also a 2005 Fender John Mayer Strat I've just set up for a friend.
So exposed tangs seem to be pretty normal. It may just depend on model year or maybe even what stock of fretwire is available. If there's a box of pre-cut frets for bound fingerboards with the ends of the tangs cut away, and they get used on an unbound neck, then filler will be needed. If the frets are 'intact', then it won't.
Hi GPJT.
great build so far. I just wanted to chime in as this issue has been bugging me lately. see how your high e is not quite over the magnet poles. I had the same issue with my Ash tele. Look it will play fine but the high e will be slightly thin and twangy. If you're a country player this will have you high fiveing your guitar. But if you're like me, it will irk you a little bit. It probably means that your neck is on a very slight angle in the neck pocket or the bridge placement is slightly off.
It was only pronounced in my guitar because my pickups were Alnico pole magnets (rather than a ceramic bar magnet with slugs) and a the pickup was not wound hot.
Nevertheless, if you have my disease, you can compensate it but raising the pickup closer to the high e.
Good luck mate:cool:
It's not quite right, but looking at the top picture of the four, the bridge itself doesn't seem to be sitting quite square, which could explain some of the string position over the pickup. You may also have the treble side of the pickup pushing against the side of the cavity, which even if it's using up say 0.5mm of play in the pickup screw holes, can make a difference. So worth checking for both.Quote:
Originally Posted by gpjt
If the bridge isn't square, then keep one of the existing rear screw holes and plug and redrill the rest.
If the pickup isn't touching the sides, you may be able to just push it a bit more to the treble side and improve the pole alignment.
One alternative fix is to get some compensated brass saddles (they will sound nicer as well) as they don't come with notches like the kit saddle. The top E string looks like it's pulled slightly out by the saddle notch, and a straight run from the string hole llooks like it will cure the issue. You can look round for Wilkinson ones, but these Vanson ones look identical and I know they get their parts from the same factory as the Wilkinson ones are made and and are about half the price. They aren't rocket science! https://www.amazon.co.uk/VANSON-Comp...DBAM5BH8V6WTRH