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Hello from Nashville! Received my Bass Kit yesterday after a four month wait. Here it is as a mock build. During my wait, I found out PBG will no longer offer these kits, so is it one of the last? I'm happy with everything so far, and anticipate a long project to get me through the winter. I'll have quite a few questions during the process. Thanks for having me!
Welcome to the forum and hope you enjoy building your new kit.
Was unaware these had been discontinued as they have been extremely popular and there are many build diaries to check out.
Cheers, Waz
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Welcome aboard - looking forward to seeing what you do with it
Hello PBG,
So I received my kit, and obviously consumed with what next. Sanding. But I feel I can't find enough info on the subject for my novice experience. Sand, sand then sand some more... ! What am I looking for with the 220 grit sand, how far before the next grit? Same then with the next grit? What am I looking for?
What about the binding, how much sanding before the binding is compromised?
I have not settled on a finish yet, so a stain is still possible. I've read you can only sand with so much grit before staining won't take.
Does the neck need much sanding, yes, where I see it needs it, but do you follow the same rule?
One more for now, where do you stop sanding to apply grain filler, is there a method?
Thanks!
Hi Buddy, all good questions to ask.
Suggest you carry out a close inspection all over both the body and neck first to identify any machine marks that run across the timber grain as these will require a different approach before doing what you think would be normal sanding.
Let's start with the neck....being made from rock maple these don't usually require much effort at all and would suggest a light sanding with 120 grit along the back where your hand rests whilst playing to knock down any splintery bits. If planning to stain body & neck the same colour, best not to sand the neck too much otherwise it gets difficult to match colours as the maple grain is very tight and too much sanding ends up polishing the surface which can repel attempts to soak up enough stain. As the headstock is already pre-shaped you may find some machine marks in the various curves and if you want it looking smooth and showing off the grain these will need to be sanded out otherwise stain will end up accentuating that more than the grain underneath.
Sanding a body..... I always use a cork block starting with 80 grit and do a fairly robust sand on top & bottom, sanding with the grain. This helps to knock down irregularities and begin to smooth down both surfaces. On the sides, and particularly curves around upper and lower horns leading to the neck pocket you will notice what looks like fine saw tooth marks left behind from when the body was cut but machine. End grain of the timber tends to show this more than side-on and to get rid of them the natural approach seems to be sand across these marks. You could try that but it takes a lot of time & effort however a better approach is to sand in the direction of the machine marks first until they are gone, and then revert back to sanding in the direction of the grain or aspect of that part of the body. For example, near where bottom strap button would be located is where most of the end grain will be visible and you will be sanding across the grain, usually at 90 degrees and this is how it's done all the way around side edges.
If using 80 grit is taking too much off or getting nervous about it step up to 120 grit. Out of 7 builds I have done 2 with binding and it copes OK with solid 120 & 180 grit sanding.
Generally I would recommend going as hard as you can on all surfaces with 120 grit trying to use that grade alone to get it as smooth as you possibly can, then maybe a light to medium session with 180, then stop and evaluate where things are at. If planning to do a stain finish, I have found this to be the best starting point. After 240 grit it feels very nice and smooth, but too smooth as surfaces become over polished and repel efforts to evenly soak up stain.
It is easy to obsess over getting a super smooth surface before applying any finish and that would be true for applying a solid spray finish but stains require a different approach as outlined above.
Stained finishes can end up looking as smooth as glass, it just requires more & more layers of top coats to flatten things out.
Hope this provides some clarity for you.
Cheers, Waz
EDIT: Forgot to mention when to add grain filler.....just after you have done your best with 120 grit as that seems to allow more of the filler to do it's job. To make sure some of it stays put and acts as a contrasting grain popper you may need to just lightly sand back with 180 to 240, but don't go nuts with either grit as you can strip lots off or end up over polishing.
Thank you Waz! I'll go forward with your advise.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazkelly
So I followed Waz advise and sanded with 120 grit overall, I don't see any machine marks and really want to go smoother with 240-220 grit but will wait for a chance to test a stain on a sample of Ash. The stain I'm considering is waterbased. I've read that will raise the grain. Is this an issue I need to consider before going forward with waterbase stain? I plan on a MusicMan Bridge pickup and I know I have to route that out and need a template or at least purchase the pup first. Do I need to route before staining?
Lastly, as I wait, can I work the frets and fretboard before gluing in the set neck? Should I sand the board before dressing the frets?
Thanks.
I like this color. The guy says he used #9 Blue, #8 Green, and #25 White. I can't find dyes in reference to these code numbers. Anyone know?
Routing for a larger bridge pickup should be done before starting on the finish. Doing neck setup before gluing makes sense. Presume you plan to seal the fake rosewood fretboard? If so, do your fret work first and when polishing them with 0000 steel wool use that to 'sand' the fretboard too as it won't be as abrasive as regular sandpaper and will bring it up very smooth without scratching.Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberBassRCA-4
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Looking good so far! I played my RCA4 kit last weekend, it sounded and looked cool!
Don't know about you but this tugs at my OCD.
With this comparison I'd be hitting the dowels licketty split!
I've flipped your image to make it a right-hander but you'll get the drift.
Attachment 28808
cheers, Mark.
Say Mark, I see it, but can that be cleanly done without a headstock veneer? I seen them use dowels to fill, but won't you see that afterward? Are there any other builders who've done this that I could see?
I've done it on my guitars. Veneer is necessary if you want to keep the maple finish.
Painting it of course means filling the gaps....but not with Timbermate (cheers Phrozin) :)
There's always the option of living with it as is.
cheers, Mark.
Well now that you pointed it out, it kinda bothers me. It was something I noticed but hadn't considered modifying. Would veneer require shaving down the surface under the veneer? You'd fill the holes, glue down the veneer, then re-drill, huh? I'd have to route the edge after gluing?
Waz, I may have made my first of many mistakes. Sanding the fretboard. I went with 220 grit between the frets, then 600 between the frets. I've been 0000 steel wool since, trying to smooth out what I may have compromised. The grain looks really dry, but I didn't take large amounts off, just smoothed out the finish that looked like stacked wood to create the fretboard. Am I beyond repair. I think I could buff before sealing, then treat as a normal lemon oil or whatever is decided. What do you think?
No, the veneer is pretty darn thin and you wouldn't notice once it's glued down.Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberBassRCA-4
I just trim it within a mm or so and then use sandpaper to finesse the edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberBassRCA-4
cheers, Mark.
If you are doing the full Ric lookalike then sealing fretboard with Tru Oil or similar will gradually fill any low points.
Presume you may have sanded across the grain as that would also be across fretboard and easier to do but also easier to damage the grain too. 0000 steel wool used in a direction up and down the neck might bring it back, if not 1200 or 1500 wet & dry paper used dry should.
Not hearing many good reports about these fake rosewood fretboards and not sure they do any good using lemon oil or similar. Wax is probably the only option if not sealing like a true Ric.
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Waz, no, stayed with the grain, not across. Not necessarily going for full on Rick. I do want a nice fretboard, but not any darker than what it is. Can this be stained, say towards a Rick? A tad bit red?
Mark, if I go this route, could I veneer the walnut wings and maple in the middle? I've never done this before, but what the hell? This seems rather intense.
I've only done Fender style headstocks but I can't see why you couldn't experiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberBassRCA-4
If it all goes balls up (which it shouldn't) you can always wood fill and then paint it.
cheers, Mark.
I like your optimism, can you match up walnut and maple and make it work?
Depends what you mean by 'match up'.
Obviously they are different colours but once again it's up to experimenting to see how it pans out.
(Personally I'd just try for one piece to cover the whole thing).
cheers, Mark.
Yeah, I then would want to continue walnut... yeah. Keep it as simple for what it is.
Thanks!
You could stain but that risks also colouring the fret marker inlays. Sounds like fretboard wax is what you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberBassRCA-4
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Was, OK! Overthinking things. Too much downtime.
Attachment 28835
I guess with down time I need to address these marks, are these the machine marks? I have sanded these with 120 grit, but it doesn't seems to remove them much. I been sanding from binding to bottom direction.
Yeah, that's machine marks from a linisher or something. You just need to keep working away at it - being end grain the direction you are sanding isn't as critical (just watch you don't mark up the binding too much) so you can sand with those marks rather than across them if that's easier. Getting the end grains looking nice is a common issue, all I can suggest is patience and gradually working your way up the grits of sandpaper. If you are going a solid colour you don't need them to be completely gone as paint/primer will fill them up pretty well. If you want to stain and clear you just need to keep going at it.
Totally agree with Sonic.
Those are more horizontal than vertical and come out easier when sanding in the same direction as the machine marks. In this case that is horizontal or parallel to the binding which is good as that is the direction of how you will end up sanding the sides anyway. 120 grit done slow and steady should do the trick and once gone try 180 or maybe 240 but no higher if planning to stain.
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Thanks Sonic and Waz. My MM Humbucker came in the mail. Down time just got busy. I'll post a photo of the pup sitting on top.
I find that the end grain direction of the seperate pieces don’t always align. Sometimes you need to sand one piece one direction, and then the next piece Change the sanding direction 90 degrees. If you are sanding with the grain the machine marks will sand out. If you sand against the grain you can make them worse.
Mark Casey, where do you suggest purchasing the maple veneer here in the States, what thickness is typical to do this? Have you any links showing how to do this?
Since last I posted, I've sanded the machine marks and the ends better. The fretboard has been 0000 Steel Wooled, although I will take Waz advice and maybe 1500/2000 wet dry a bit more to smooth out the inlays. Received my MM pup, and have ordered a Humbucker template and a 12" radius sanding block. Coming along slowly.
So I'm looking at the bridge placement. Not sure I'll keep the MM style bridge, but overall placement is critical. I already ran my pencil centerline off. Now I'm using the factory routes to determine center and work off of that. To keep the bridge square, I measured the same distance back from the rear pup cut. Experimenting with placement, from the saddle to the nut cut for each string, I'm testing with this laser. Does anyone know if this is not the way to go? 34" from the inside nut to 3/4 of the bridge saddles adjustments, approximately.
That end grain looks superb.
As for standard MM style bridge I reckon they are pretty good and better than most Ric lookalikes as they are solid and provide more fore & aft travel of the bridge saddles.
Scale length is best measured 34" from inner side of nut on treble side to mid point of G string saddle, ensuring there is still a little bit of forward adjustment available, but more important to have lots more aft adjustment available for low end E string saddle.
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Waz, thanks. I worked hard on that end grain and kept going. The other side too, just kept looking at it and going till what I thought looked good.Quote:
Originally Posted by wazkelly
As far as the bridge placement, I am still fooling with the where to place it, your advise is sound. I am more worried about the neck position. Making sure I keep it straight to the bridge.
Drop in the bridge pickup and run some string or fishing line from the Low E & high G tuners, through the nut, over the pickup, and down to where bridge should be located. This helps to see how everything is lining up and whether neck is sitting at a slight angle in the neck pocket. I would probably place a few strips of masking tape around where you think scale length and bridge should end up and draw lines where the dummy strings would pass on through. Make sure there is an even amount of space on either fretboard edge too as you want as close to perfect parallel lines all the way through to the bridge saddles. Precision over looks is so important with the aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberBassRCA-4
Also - check out: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=3048
DB - former resident luthier did this up for me a while ago when I was trying to work out how to set up a P Bass bridge. Different bass - same process.
Great tips Brendan. I'll certainly consider these procedures. My worries are that the RCA-4 neck pocket is minimal, allowing the neck to drift from the headstock right or left very easily. I'm not sure if the neck needs to be placed as far against the back pocket or should there be space allowed. I can line it up as shown and through video's, but once glue is applied, shimmed or not, I'm concerned with how it will line up with all the clamps in the way, and the amount of time before the glue sets up and/or can I make adjustments. Are these valid questions, or am I Way overthinking things?
Neck break angle seems to be an issue with these kits and would suggest checking that before doing any gluing.
Place neck in the pocket and leave a few mm clearance at the back as they are not always square at the end. Hopefully neck is flat, if not adjust truss rod until it is. Next step is to clamp bridge where it should sit in relation to scale length then run a long metal ruler or straight edge from inner side of nut to groove in a bridge saddle and check how much gap there is underneath all the way along fretboard to bridge. This gives an indication as to where the action will end up and whether any shim modifications are required.
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Thanks Waz, gonna need to buy deeper throated C-clamps, quick purchase from the Box Store and these wont work. Can't clamp. Setting the neck is a while off. Just checking, while I wait.