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adam
21-07-2017, 09:50 PM
We've been contacted by a manufacturer in South Korea who make finished guitars for some very well known guitar brands. They are very interested in the Kit market and want to do business with Pit Bull Guitars. Yes, I am a little chuffed they contacted us first (apparently).

Obviously, being a First World country, they're not going to make kits for US$80, they are going to be a premium price.

To give you some idea, their ST style kit would list here for AU$300-400 and a PRS style kit, with a 20cm flame maple cap (which looks beautiful), would be around $800. This is factoring in an even smaller profit margin than we aim for (but never achieve) on our Chinese kits.

So, I guess the question is... will anyone here seriously consider paying this much for a guitar kit? Or, is this the price point where you would shop for a finished guitar?

What do you think?

Simon Barden
21-07-2017, 10:30 PM
Great idea, Adam, thanks for posting it.

Would these come with better quality hardware and pickups, a similar standard to what's supplied now, or would these be neck + body only prices?

I'd like to make a premium guitar kit, but for me in the UK, by the time I add on about 23% of import duty and VAT, I'd really be better off looking at more local suppliers. For me, the top quality PRS (and presumable LP) style (Aus $800+shipping) x charges would be around £645 (currently Aus$1045). I'm not saying I wouldn't ever buy one, but I'd certainly have to know first that they were pretty much flawless. Errors and flaws in a budget kit you can live with, but not in a premium priced product.

I'm spending around £200 on quality hardware and electronics for my current kits, but if the kits came with equivalent quality products, then that obviously makes them far more affordable for me.

(20cm is a very thick maple cap, Adam, so maybe it's 2cm? ;) )

CascadiaGuitarGeek
22-07-2017, 01:24 AM
That's a tough one. Part of the fun of guitar kits is being able to experiment a little with them, without necessarily risking a whole lot of money in the process. At the the $800 price range I would be looking for a very specific kit to justify the price and definitely have some higher expectations for the wood. You mention the thicker caps, would these also feature two piece bodies with more selectivity in matching grain? Would they still be able to do custom orders?

Rossc0
22-07-2017, 05:59 AM
Morning Adam,

After buying the pickups I wanted and upgrading all the hardware and electronics, I'm pretty bloody close to that $800 mark on the LP anyway, and probably will be some serious $'s on the Strat and Tele as well. So with better quality everything from the off, don't see why not. I'd want to be able to have a decent selection of bits and pieces to choose from at purchase time. But the think top sounds awesome.

OliSam
22-07-2017, 06:17 AM
Premium hardware as standard is a very interesting option.


Sent from outta space using MartianTalk

Dedman
22-07-2017, 06:24 AM
as others have said , if the hardware and pick ups were top notch I'd probably think about it. $min $200 for pick ups, at least $50 for tuners, $100 for a bridge, min $50 on switches and pots plus the current kit price is getting pretty close. If the necks were better finished and the veneers thicker I think you'd win me.

As it is what I usually spend on a kit I could buy a lower end or second hand finished guitar but where is the fun in that?

Fretworn
22-07-2017, 07:46 AM
While the $300-$400 for a top-quality kit sounds possible I can't imagine I would ever be in the position to pay $800 for a kit guitar.

king casey
22-07-2017, 08:08 AM
Seems like most folk are happy to buy the cheap kit and then upgrade various items.
Maybe better to cater to this crowd by offering upgraded body/neck/parts options rather than the full kit.
Something like the Aussie version of Warmoth?

Cheers, Mark.

adam
22-07-2017, 08:29 AM
Thanks for the comments, I'll give all of these consideration.

Sorry Simon, 20mm Top, not 20cm.

Yes, I'm assuming the hardware and pups will be much better quality

We will get a few samples in and check them out.

wokkaboy
22-07-2017, 09:59 AM
sounds great Ads, keen to see pics of the quality of the timber, the shaping and the hardware. I'd pay that for a premium kit but I will be looking for quality timbers and cutting my own bodies on the CNC. Keen to see how good the necks are too !
When the sample kits arrive let me know Ads and I'll come to the warehouse and check them out and give you my opinion and maybe DB can meet as well

WeirdBits
22-07-2017, 12:22 PM
I echo most of the comments here.

I guess there are two main types of builders: those who just build a kit as is, and those who treat the kits as a base and upgrade them to what they want. If the upgraders are spending $200 for the kit they may then spend another $200-400 on upgrading to the hardware, pickups and electronics they want. So, the kit's neck and body are just the base and the cheapest part of the build.

If the premium kits offer a major step up in wood and quality (and QC) for the bodies and necks and have equivalent hardware/parts, then prices of $600-800+ become potentially viable. You could get the guitar/bass you want from the kit as is, rather than modifying, fixing, adjusting and upgrading a cheaper kit to get something close to what you want. That said, $800 outright is a lot harder to justify/obfuscate than a $200 kit with gradual upgrades.

Looking forward to seeing the samples.

JB RETRO
22-07-2017, 12:39 PM
Echo here too

FrankenWashie
22-07-2017, 12:39 PM
It's certainly something to consider. I'd be interested in a premium bare PRS style kit dependant on final price point, if it was available less hardware.

stuzl873213
22-07-2017, 01:03 PM
At 800$ you would need to be both competent and keen.Import duties and exchange rates would probably kill off a lot of interest for some countries

Andy40
22-07-2017, 04:35 PM
I would have to agree with Weirdy and Wokks, the quality of the wood would be the price point for me. Sourcing a different configuration of pups, pots and stuff is part of the fun

I would definitely try one.

Simon Barden
22-07-2017, 04:47 PM
Pots and capacitors are cheap to replace if you want to. I'm sure a kit without pickups would be a viable option but if say on an LP kit it came with the OEM TonePros bridge and tailpiece and Grover standard or locking tuners, CTS pots and orange drop caps, then I'd be happy with those.

As it is, we have no real idea yet what's being offered for the money.

wazkelly
22-07-2017, 04:58 PM
By the time I have finished most of my builds they can end up around $600 total outlay and not sure if I could justify the higher price point for negligible better outcome.

As others have said the QC would have to be flawless with higher grade timbers on offer.

At present the finished Tele's on PBG store are almost a better buy than building a kit version, particularly if you are time poor and also not so confident or lacking skills and equipment required to do a decent job.

Maybe 'white label' finished versions via your eBay store could be a way to test their completed stock to gauge levels of interest at a higher price point also within a more crowded market space.

Cheers, Waz

adam
22-07-2017, 06:19 PM
We'll get Pizza and Beer and make a day of it ;)




sounds great Ads, keen to see pics of the quality of the timber, the shaping and the hardware. I'd pay that for a premium kit but I will be looking for quality timbers and cutting my own bodies on the CNC. Keen to see how good the necks are too !
When the sample kits arrive let me know Ads and I'll come to the warehouse and check them out and give you my opinion and maybe DB can meet as well

Simon Barden
22-07-2017, 06:51 PM
We'll get Pizza and Beer and make a day of it ;)


Look out for cheese spots on the new kits! ;)

adam
22-07-2017, 07:01 PM
"I love my new $800 kit, but any advice on removing this?"

21011

WeirdBits
22-07-2017, 07:03 PM
Beer and pizza meeting = success.

OldLummox
23-07-2017, 07:26 AM
If the nut was NOT plastic, much better bridge, pup's, pots, TUNERS, etc and the necks and bodies were significantly better I would certainly be willing to pay that cost. I have built five other guitars from other kits and two from clearance bodies and necks in the USA, my Pit Bull is the best quality thus far.

wazkelly
23-07-2017, 01:06 PM
Maybe we just need better QC from current Chinese Factory? Price point is about right and any higher makes ready made guitars look a more attractive proposition.

Possibly include these under custom orders for folks seeking something more exotic or high end.

zeromick
23-07-2017, 04:02 PM
for around $800 bucks you're in the area of being able to buy a second hand, top quality/mint condition Fujigen built Fender from the 80's or 90's
I know it's not the same as building something yourself thats the sort of area a kit like these would sit in.
Interested to see what you get for $800ish it'd be something special I'm guessing.

corsair
23-07-2017, 04:26 PM
I like the current range and the price point it's at; buyers of basic kits can - and do - customise the daylights out their kits with upgraded or premium hardware and still be well within a realistic budget, especially if the disposable income must be eked out due to family or business commitments.

$800 for a kit and then having to put good hardware into such a kit to make it worthwhile takes the whole kit ethos into new territory....

dave.king1
23-07-2017, 05:12 PM
Interesting concept and will follow with much interest.

FWIW my current Tuff Dog build has run to around $600 which is far more than an Alliexpress copy but one of them and the Toneriders falls close to the same ballpark.

By comparison there are two genuine Custom Shop Tuff Dogs currently available in Oz and they are so close to $10K it doesn't matter and Merle's Tuff Dog had the Texas Specials replaced by Redd Volkaert with Hot Rails so even more expense if you buy the "real" thing and want exactly what Merle had.

Makes me happy with my $600 for now and Hot Rails later if I feel the urge ( and I can say with pride I made this )

Simon Barden
23-07-2017, 06:27 PM
Is it worth thinking of supplying the kits with the basic PBG pups, and talking to a pickup manufacturer like Seymour Duncan and see if you could supply a choice of their pickups at special upgrade prices, like with the Grover machine heads? I know you already offer the Bensons, but they are very much an unknown quantity for me and probably many others (certainly there's no UK distributor). It's probably not viable, but it's just a thought.

wazkelly
23-07-2017, 07:20 PM
Is it worth thinking of supplying the kits with the basic PBG pups, and talking to a pickup manufacturer like Seymour Duncan and see if you could supply a choice of their pickups at special upgrade prices, like with the Grover machine heads? I know you already offer the Bensons, but they are very much an unknown quantity for me and probably many others (certainly there's no UK distributor). It's probably not viable, but it's just a thought.

Hey Simon, looks like PBG already has a connection with Tonerider and they are much cheaper than SD's and the difference in sound to justify the extra spend is negligible. A pair of SD Humbuckers would cost more than most kits and the same can be said for Custom Bensons as the ones for my EX-5 were USD $220.

Simon Barden
23-07-2017, 08:04 PM
Whist Toneriders (and the like) are very good indeed for the money, I do think that a lot of the SDs (not all) do sound a bit better - plus you do get a lot more variety in what SD offer - important if you are making an expensive custom guitar. Yes, you are paying a lot more for maybe a 10% better sound, but that is always the way with things.

Upgrading to Toneriders doesn't cost much and they are probably the ideal match for the standard PBG kits, but I'm talking about the $700-$800 high-end kits so there's not the cost imbalance. Plus it only works if there's significant discount available, so they don't cost $300+ for a set of humbuckers.

dave.king1
23-07-2017, 08:14 PM
Serious question here that I'd really like to understand.

Assume that we have a two pickups from different manufacturers that have alnico V polepieces and the same number of turns of the same gauge as each other and come in at say 7K ohms, what would make say a Seymour Duncan or Fender better (much more expensive) than say a Tonerider.

I do wonder because the magnets and copper don't know what brand is on them.

ps. If anyone has the exact specs for the Harmonic Design pickups in Redd Volkaert's Tomkins Tele please let me know so I can get some wound

Simon Barden
23-07-2017, 08:44 PM
The expense is mainly down to Chinese vs US labour rates. How the windings are applied can make a big difference to the sound (tension, winding pattern , machine vs hand scatterwound) as can the level of wax potting - none, some, very etc. Materials used for bobbins and the wire insulation can also affect things like the overall pickup capacitance. Level of magnetic change on the magnetic pole pieces can vary as well.

In theory, it should be possible to make them sound identical, but I'm at my knowledge limit here on pickup making, so can't give a definitive answer.

dave.king1
24-07-2017, 06:07 AM
Thanks Simon, the difference between the manufacture method of the kit pickups and the Toneriders is obvious.

Having said that with automated manufacture the windings should be very similar

Not knocking anyone's perspective it has really piqued my curiosity

andrewdosborne
24-07-2017, 06:30 AM
I've lost count on positive comments received from other musicians when they hear my Tonerider fitted out guitars (with upgraded electronics) - especially when they hear the price!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dedman
24-07-2017, 07:06 AM
I tend to think the difference is swagger rights. I don't know why people think US workers give a dam any more than Chinese or Korean or Indonesian or Australian workers do. Minimum wage is still minimum wage to the person earning it.

stan
24-07-2017, 07:55 AM
I think a premium option would be a great thing.
As the others have stated I would expect top QC, and nicer components.

And if the kits are from World Musical Instruments then absolutely yes_ they make Chapman, Schecter, BC Rich, Dean, Gretsch, LTD and the PRS SE range - awesome bang for buck guitars, and top quality fit and finish

pablopepper
24-07-2017, 08:04 AM
WMI is where the Ormsby GTR range is made also. So, possibility of multiscale?

Sundragon
24-07-2017, 08:18 AM
My 2 bob:

The price difference is too high for this to be commercially feasible IMO.

A backyard builder would be very unlikely to spend that kind of money with the hope they build well enough to make it worth it, and an accomplished or luthier-level builder will be quite unlikely to be buying that level of starting point from (with all due respect) Pit Bull, if they aren't simply building from scratch themselves anyway.

This is just how I see it.

I think the market for top quality kits could definitely do with an improved level, but I think it would be lower volumes than the standard kits, and would have to be in the $300-$450 range for it to have any take-up.

stan
24-07-2017, 08:22 AM
what would be nice is some premium quality necks, ready to go (frets dressed, bone nut ...) and a through neck option

zeromick
24-07-2017, 06:02 PM
what would be nice is some premium quality necks, ready to go (frets dressed, bone nut ...) and a through neck option

this!

Quality necks! smooth as butter ready to bolt onto a body

elcodyloco
25-07-2017, 07:26 AM
$400 is only a set of pickups short of a Mexican Fender. $800 is more than some PRS SE models. I just don't see it working out, unless you can reduce the cost by just not including hardware besides the pickguard. And even at that point, there are plenty of companies that already offer similar priced kits (or just individual bodies and necks) that are fully customizable outside of shape.

I think PBG has found the sweet spot in cheaper kits that are priced to allow for flexability for every builder's budget, from simple oil finishes and stock hardware, to full on nitro finishes and top of the line hardware.

^$0.02

Chuck
25-07-2017, 01:47 PM
I agree on the premium necks as there's definitely a market there for people who are happy to do a scratch-build body but are happy with a pre-made neck (like me!).

For me premium kits aren't as much of a draw, but I fully get that they are for many. As elcoyloco says, there's a sweet spot in what's currently offered.

The only other thing would be expanding the range of hardware to provide an alternative to the likes of Realparts or Stewmac. Then again, that's a lot of inventory to carry.

As far as the premium kits go, I'm guessing you'd only offer them in a limited range to assess interest?

Maddogm
25-07-2017, 02:28 PM
I guess it comes down to what you get for that price: for example does the hardware match the price tag as well as the body?
if it came with the same pickups as the chinese kits then people would baulk. I think those of us who upgrade everything on the chinese kits would definitely give them a look if it meant less things to upgrade.

Assuming an overall upgrade in quality I think they would sell, just at much slower rate than the standard kits. So then it becomes a matter of will they sell enough to be worthwhile?

Simon Barden
25-07-2017, 04:03 PM
$800 is more than some PRS SE models.

A couple of years ago maybe, but that's no longer the case as all the PRS SE models have been moved upwards in price and features - carved tops rather than slab tops, often PRS US pickups etc. The cheapest new PRS SE in Andertons (ignoring the one run-out sale model) is now £729 (currently Aus$1196) - though I expect an Australian shop price to be significantly higher.

I do understand what you are getting at though. Even if good value for the wood quality and manufacturing standards, $800 is still a lot of money for most people, especially once you've added on the cost of all the finishing materials. But there are those who do have the money and having made some of the cheaper kits, may feel like they want to try something different. Whether it's commercially viable for PBG to invest in stocking such a range is a question for Adam. I suspect there's quite a large export market for PBG kits, but the various import duties involved on a $800 kit, whilst the same percentage-wise as on a $200 kit, make a big difference to the overall price (you could buy a standard PBG kit with the mark-up), so I see a limited export potential for the top-price kits.

Ignoring all that, very good quality Strat or Tele kits for Aus$400 (rather than the fancy AAA maple topped $800 guitars) are obviously going to be the biggest volume sellers out of such a range.

A good one or two piece ash body with matched pieces of wood, not joined at an angle, and with a more Fender-like 9.5" or even 7.25" radius neck (hopefully there would be both options), as opposed to a generic 12" radius, could make up the basis of a very nice guitar indeed.

But all this is still pure speculation, as we have yet to see examples of the kits or know what quality of hardware (if any) they will come with.

Zandit75
25-07-2017, 04:15 PM
Port Mac guitars have a wide range of PRS SE guitars, starting point is $749AUD and work up to almost $1600AUD.

Simon Barden
25-07-2017, 04:50 PM
But those $749 ones are no longer in the PRS SE catalogue and won't be available in future once they are sold. I obviously can't say that PRS will never make a 'basic' SE guitar again, but they have currently opted to move out of the sub-$1000 market, probably because of increased competition from others in that area. Look at the one's labelled as 2017 models and you are now looking at a $1100 starting price. (It's now become obvious to me they've dropped the cheaper models for the 2017 model year, so it's less than a year, not a couple as I first mentioned).

And I'm sure the $800 PRS kit would be far more like the fully arched PRS Core range guitars than the more bevelled-edged SE and S2 range. Plus, unlike the SEs, the tops should (hopefully) be all solid wood with no veneer on top (so no glue marks!).

Zandit75
26-07-2017, 07:18 AM
Gotcha, sorry I didn't look that hard at the details, I had only been on the site earlier last week, and thought the prices were much lower than what your mentioned.

Simon Barden
26-07-2017, 04:18 PM
I only knew because I'd read it on a review of a PRS SE in a guitar mag.

Dikkybee007
04-08-2017, 10:08 AM
Firstly my collection of electric guitars numbers 12, 4 finished store bought and 8 kits. The store bought bass cost me, on special, $299 and I had to replace the strings and replaced the nut which added another $50. The store bought Strat I again bought on special for $250 and I replaced all the electrics over time and nut which probably added about $220. The LP I bought on special for $299 and I have replaced the nut and strings which adds another $20. I bought a Brian May guitar which cost me just a shade under $1500 but that was due to me having the money at the time and as my only special guitar I will ever buy due to my financial state. I have spent probably about $500+ on tools and I would say I will probably spend about the same to buy more tools over time. I have 3 non PBG kits and the first PBG kit I got was the cheaper Ricky kit (Runner up GOTM). On each of the 8 kits I have spent between $200-$300 on new pups and various parts on top of the kit price. I have a limited budget and I buy all my guitar parts over a time period to lessen the strain on my money. To be quite honest I have asked myself a series of questions and I will give you my no holds barred answers to be able to answer the original question about the premium price kits.

1. Am I happy with the price of the current kits? YES. My budget allows me to purchase what I want.
2. Am I happy with the quality of the kits I have bought? NO. There are woods and then there are woods.
3. Would I buy a guitar kit with a veneer? NO. Due to all the bad experiences I have read about on the forums about QC and the thickness which I have experienced before on other brand kits.
4. In the future am I going to buy any more PBG kits? YES. I have 1 on order with plans for at least another 3 and I accept I am getting what I pay for but I have the tools and skills to overcome or hide most of the problems I have read about.
5. Which guitar do I like to play the most? My Brian May
6. Which guitar do I play the most? My kit made ones.
7. Would I recommend PBG to friends and family? YES. No question there as you get value for money.
8. If I had unlimited money, would I buy a PBG kit over a higher priced quality kit? NO. Due to hopefully the difference in wood quality.
9. If I had unlimited money, would I buy a premium kit over a store bought brand name? Brand name all the way.
10. Would I pay $800 for a premium quality guitar kit? YES. If it was made of quality wood.
11. How likely am I to buy a $800 premium quality kit? Snowballs chance in hell. My budget would not allow me and I feel there are more than just me here with the same reason.

I keep going back to wood and at this stage I am building a PBG SG bass and re-finishing another company kit SG guitar. I have been putting the bevels around the outside of both guitars and the difference in wood is obvious. When I was rasping on one side the wood was cutting really nice but on the other side the rasp was barely making a mark and when it did come off it was leaving a huge burr. One side was a good wood and the other was like sap wood, very soft and fibrous and a pain to work with. The tone you get from a good wood guitar seems brighter and crisper, defined, but the sound you get from most of the kits I have built seem duller and not as defined or crisp. But I feel the price reflects what you are getting and I for one am quite happy with the current ratio but it has taken me time, tools and experience to be able to get the quality I want.

Marcel
05-08-2017, 01:45 PM
In many ways I'd echo Dikkybee007's statement.

If there was a discernible difference in the basic wood types and their grade, or if the figured Maple top was 5mm or 10mm thick instead of 0.6mm, or if the PU's and/or bridges and/or tuners were all branded names, or there were certain aspects to the neck that made it 'more special' or better... then yes, I think there would be many that would seriously consider saving the extra for a better quality kit... but at $800 it is starting to get into doubtful territory. The $400 to $600 range would fare a far better turnover of product.

Sure, offer a few $800 kits, however I think unless they are in some important way "special" many if not most will sit on the shelves for a long time before moving...

On saying that there are plenty who regardless of the supplied hardware would jump at getting an ES kit if it were to be made from the same woods and construction as a real ES. Same could be said for an certain Ash types, or Pine or Alder on a Strat or Tele build. The list of 'specials' could be huge...

There are plenty of kit offerings out there on the cheaper end of the market with most of Basswood and some truly light weights made of Poplar, and there are those builders with $ behind them who will most often build higher end partscasters by buying branded name parts off those huge American guitar parts sellers or seek and pay for those expensive bits that meet their specific tonal needs...and then there is that huge gulf of nothing much in between...

adam
05-08-2017, 02:37 PM
Thank for all the great feedback. I have 3 samples on their way (in production now).

I agree with all the comments made in this thread and absolutely, these kits will need to be a significant step up in all facets; timber, craftsmanship, QC, hardware, electronics and pickups. If not, then we would be wasting out time.

When the 3 kits arrive, I'll try and get all the Perth members together for a catch up and we can have a good look at the kits together. Then we can all feed back our thoughts here on the Forum.

Thanks again for all the comments; some of which have clearly had a lot of thought put into them.