Firey Red Finish

[Hobastard]

Hi Guys, I've decided that my first Kit will be a Strat. And since I'm a Bass Player and not a Guitarist I don't have the Benefit of Speed, so I will be building a Guitar that I will probably look at a lot more than play, Therefore I need a Guiitar that looks Fast, ie. a Red One.

I want to build something that is as close to Ferrari / Ducati Red as possible while still showing some nice grain to keep true to the roots of the Instrument.

I also want a High Gloss Finish.

Should I start with as white a body as possible??? I considered Bleaching then Filling, or should I Fill then bleach.
So many random ideas going around in my head at the moment that I need a bit of guidance to help me get focussed.
The build won't start for a couple of months yet but I want to get my strategy in place before I go much further.

I have a clear picture in my head of what I want, (it looks pretty good from here) now I have to work out how to get it, and I need you blokes to help me work that out.

[Andy40]

Hows this

17697

[Andy40]

Thats a candy pearl colour. I would recommend, hitting the old Supercheap auto. There are an amazing amount of reds in sprays that look great.

Phrozin has done a great tute on one of his build diaries about spray painting with rattle cans. Have a look at how he does it. I just level, grain fill with timbermate, use the undercoat, colour and gloss coats from Superrcheap. peasy as mate.

[Simon Barden]

You're going to need a coloured lacquer rather than a paint if you want to see some of the grain through the finish. This may limit you to using nitro lacquers, I simply don't know if clear acrylic or poly lacquers are available.

Fender did used to bleach their guitars before spraying at one time, but then stopped doing that. Butterscotch, one of the classic old Fender Tele finishes, used an ash body which then has a translucent white finish sprayed over it, which was then clear coated using a very slight yellow tinted lacquer (the original clear lacquers yellowed with age so now look a lot darker). You could do something similar, using an ash bodied kit (for the stronger grain patterns), but as the ash is normally a bit darker overall than basswood, the white lacquer will obviously lighten that whilst letting the grain show through. Then some coats of clear red before straight clear coats. Ash will need to be grain-filled before painting.

Phrozin does very nice solid colours, but you'll need to use a different technique for translucent finishes.

[Hobastard]

I was thinking more along the lines of an ink and clear coat. Is that possible???

[Simon Barden]

A stain of some sort, yes. It's just harder to get a really vibrant red when staining wood as the stain always darkens a bit. You can but get some wood scraps and try.

You'll also find that the different bits of wood will take the stain differently, so it will be less coherent than a painted finish. All depends on what you're seeing in your head. Any builds on here or on the web you can point to as along your lines?

[Hobastard]

Sadly, I can't find any pics of what I want, maybe that's because it can't be done, all the close ones are a bit too dark. Maybe I'm being too demanding for a first timer.....

[wazkelly]

I was thinking more along the lines of an ink and clear coat. Is that possible???

Something like this perhaps???

1770417705

[Simon Barden]

That's a good example Waz (I had yours in mind), though it does also show how the (darkened) ash grain brings the overall brightness of the finish down. Bits of that are very close to a fiery red (in the right light) and others almost a brown.

But would something like that be acceptable, Hobastard, or would you generally like it more vibrant? Not dark staining the Timbermate would help a bit, but some of the grain on ash is very dark anyway. It's lighter on basswood, but that often has very little grain to it, though some pieces do seem to have lots - but probably best to assume not much unless you can pick the exact body you want.

[wazkelly]

Hi Simon, used ebony timbermate as I was wanting to accent the grain in a dark contrasting way. I reckon if stained without TM that the stain would have come out a few shades darker in those grain patterns but not as dark as the ebony filler. Maybe this could be an alternative approach worth considering?

[Dedman]

anyone done candy red paint straight onto timber? Frozen would probably be the guy to ask if the clear red would adhere with no base coat

[wazkelly]

anyone done candy red paint straight onto timber?

Hi Dedman, do you mean traditional Fender Candy Apple Red which is a solid metallic colour or more of a translucent candy red that looks like a tinted clear coat?

There was a build done within past 12 months I think where the forum member did this really cool crackled candy red effect. It was entered in GOTM so that would be the easiest place to find it.

[Hobastard]

Something like this perhaps???

1770417705

This is the closest to what I want so far, but still a little Dark, that's why I thought some kind of Bleaching or lightening of the timber might help.

The grain is perfect as long as I can get the base colour. Just a little lighter would be perfect. My other concern is that if I get it too light it might come out Pink.

And we don't want that do we Fellas.....

Edit: so I trolled all the Build Diaries to see how Waz' Bass was done but I was (pun intended) unable to find it to pick his brains.

Maybe my eyes are just painted on.......
any chance of a link or a rundown on what you used and how you went about it.
I reckon it's a very good starting point and if I go Basswood I might get that slightly brighter colour I'm after. (maybe I can get Adam to send me the "whitest one he can find).....

[JB RETRO]

I was thinking along the lines of a 'Nitro' transparent red. The body is sealed with a clear sealer, Vinyl, doesn't hide any of the grain. Its reasonably expensive per can and a bit toxic but a very nice finish.' Sydney guitar setups' sell a whole variety of old school colours in rattle cans.

[billb]

Edit: so I trolled all the Build Diaries to see how Waz' Bass was done but I was (pun intended) unable to find it to pick his brains.

Maybe my eyes are just painted on.......
any chance of a link or a rundown on what you used and how you went about it.
I reckon it's a very good starting point and if I go Basswood I might get that slightly brighter colour I'm after. (maybe I can get Adam to send me the "whitest one he can find).....

Hobastard,
Here's the link to Wazkelly's lovely build. It's also in his signature block :)
http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=4813

[Hobastard]

Hobastard,
Here's the link to Wazkelly's lovely build. It's also in his signature block :)
http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=4813

Cheers, Scoured from cover to cover, Lovely Build Waz, I won't copy it verbatim but it sure has given me a lot of food for thought.
I read on another page where a guy did a Tele kinda "backwards", staining the wood first, then sealing lightly before grain filling. It sure was a big and involved process.....
Has anyone here done it that way???

[Simon Barden]

The Gibson "TV yellow" finish was achieved by tinted grain filling after an initial spray of white paint, then adding 'clear' coats over the top. The lacquers used then weren't light-fast, so quite quickly yellowed (and in the '50s their clear coats were slightly tinted to start with, not 100% clear), but often the "TV yellow" guitars were pretty white. Later they started using cream/light yellow paint and tinted clear coats when they switched to more light-fast lacquers.

Not 100% the same thing, but a similar principle. The (presumably) darker tinted grain filler will show up better against the stained wood than if you'd stained over a tinted grain filler. It may work best on a wood with a lot of decent sized grain pores, like mahogany. Ash may have almost too much depth to it if you want a level finish, though a filler only slightly darker than the body stain might work. If you look at Waz's ash body, the pronounced grain patterns are quite deep.

If you filled all those up, some of those grain lines would be almost solid filler if you then sanded it back all flat, and it could look a bit artificial. But it might not. Maybe it's worth trying to get hold of some pieces of scrap ash and trying a few different staining and filling methods and seeing what you prefer.

[wazkelly]

Cheers, Scoured from cover to cover, Lovely Build Waz, I won't copy it verbatim but it sure has given me a lot of food for thought.
I read on another page where a guy did a Tele kinda "backwards", staining the wood first, then sealing lightly before grain filling. It sure was a big and involved process.....
Has anyone here done it that way???

G'day Hobie, glad you found the J Bass build thread. Colour could have been a bit lighter if there was more of the Colortone Cherry Red and less of the red fountain pen ink and it all comes down to experimentation to find the shade that you think might work. In this instance it is the only one out of 5 builds where it ended up exactly the colour I wanted. Mind you, these builds are like babies and you grow to love each and every one of them , even if they don't turn out perfect or how you intended.

For the 'backwards' Tele was that the one done mostly via video and used boot polish as the grain filler/popper stuff? Have to say that was the first time I had seen things done that way and did not absorb as much grain fill/pop as doing that part of the process first.

Thinking more about using Ash and maybe not wanting to darken the grain you could use the stain to do the grain popping for you. Don't for one moment think that I have all the answers, just experimented plenty and come up with a few pleasant surprises along the way. For example, both the EX-5 & EX-1 were basswood bodies but totally different looking grain where the EX-1 colour scheme seemed to pick it up better. This got me thinking overtime when trying to work out what to do on the flame top Tele as was so paranoid about sanding the thin maple cap and used the stain in two stages to accentuate the grain and reckon this might be the way to go where there is plenty of grain but not wanting to make it too dark. Couple of shots below to illustrate what I mean and hopes this feeds your thoughts a bit more....

1775917760

[Hobastard]

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/swamp-ash-grain-fill-with-dye-tutorial.371080/
Cheers Waz, This is the Thread for the "Reverse Stain" Tele.
I'm not saying that I will go that way, Just curious..... I found it a really interesting read.

I'm leaning towards the Basswood body at the moment and keeping the grain subtle with the Transparent Nitro, but that could change right up until I actually do it.....

Right now I want to evaluate every possible avenue so I can choose what's best for me.....

[wazkelly]

Thanks Hobie, interesting read and he definitely took the longer and harder way to get it done.

Only used Timbermate for grain filling on an Ash body as there is stuff all to fill on basswood and likewise on Alder too. If I was to do one again reckon that once the TM has been sanded off after 24 hours curing time it should then be left for a number of days to truly fully cure and harden up so that you can minimise the shrinkage issues many builders talk about once a water based stain or dye is applied. Unless of course you want to see the defined grain lines through the final layers of finish.

Having played around with black stamp pad ink on my latest build I would strongly recommend against using it as the stuff is cheap and nasty and seemed to have an oily property to it that made wiping off extremely difficult. In fact it took 2 days of multiple wet sanding sessions to get rid of the damage caused. In hindsight black fountain pen ink would have done the same effect but easier to work with as you can wipe lots off with a damp rag if need be. Downside could be bleeding or leaching into the next colour applied.

Also read somewhere in past 6 months on this forum where genuine colortone bought from the states (Stewmac perhaps) can be mixed in metho rather than water with better results and that in it's purest state it can also be added to Tru Oil thus allowing you to create a coloured translucent finish - ideal if you want to replicate a toffee apple look. Keda dyes seem to be another option too as they come in a powdered form where you mix it into something to create a coloured paste or liquid and then apply.

In summary, I would use ebony TM, sand and leave for a week then mix a brew of colourtone & TO and start applying that for each and every top coat until done. From 6th coat would dilute down that coloured brew 50:50 with turps and apply with wet & dry paper as I have done on the Swampy Tele as it has come up the best out 5 builds due to this finishing method. If using cherry red it should look like a toffee apple shaped guitar once done.

[Kick]

Hm... Not really happy to read your about your negative experience with black ink because I had planned to use this to recreate a Les Paul Red Widow type of top. And strange also because I have seen numerous YT clips (from Fredyen.com, BigDGuitars and Jamsession.tv) who just are using simple stamp ink for their tops (quilt or flamed veneer).

So, I'm a bit confused right now.

Sorry for going off-topic.

[Simon Barden]

I'd assume that Ink Stamp ink comes in various formulations, some of which are better than others for staining. But permanent fountain pen ink should be OK. I'd imagine Ink Stamp ink is made so that it doesn't dry up easily when exposed to the air on an open pad. Anything just water-based wouldn't take that long to dry out.

[Hobastard]

Thanks Waz, I think you might have the right formula for me.... Now if I can stop spending my savings on my Bass, I could get this kit to happen.

[Hobastard]

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Getting closer to pulling the trigger on this project after today. As expected the call came last night to do an extra shift inside this hot dirty dusty (lots of lead in that dust) cooler drum. Lots of aches and pains for my trouble, but the some of the extra cash can go towards my "guitar shaped toffee apple".......

[wazkelly]

what exactly do you do for a living that requires you to get inside that thing?

[Hobastard]

Emergency Response Officer.
Because of the hazardous nature of the vessel, I had to be in there with the guy welding up the cracks just in case he got into difficulty. There was another guy sitting outside just watching both of us..... Both of whom are paid far more than me.....
I also fight fires hang of ropes and do First Aid. But most of the time I do mundane tasks, waiting for the "good jobs".

[wazkelly]

First aid or paramedic skills required?

[Hobastard]

Not quite to Paramedic level, cert3 plus advanced rescuss, plus a few extra bits thrown in.

[wazkelly]

And this is based somewhere near Hobart? It almost looks like bits at a gold mine.

[Hobastard]

Nyrstar. Zinc Works. Very close to Hobart. Google it.
Its quite big...... Uses something like 10% of southern Tassie's electricity. And accounts for a larger percentage of the State's income.

[wazkelly]

Ok. Being up in Qld we don't hear much about Tassie and will check it out.

[Hobastard]

That's OK I'd never heard of it before I moved to Tassie...... Didn't know much about the place till I started working here.....

[Hobastard]

Well, sadly the whole firey red Strat thing will have to go on hold for a while due to a sudden and unexpected change in my Marital Status..... :( weather was deteriorating anyway....... Anyone want to buy 10 acres 30 minutes South of Hobart?????

[Andy40]

Sorry to hear that dude on a number of fronts. I would only go there for the fly fishing never to live. Hope everything works out

[Fretworn]

Bummer dude. I'm always lost for words when I hear about breakups. Hope you are ok.

[wokkaboy]

sorry to hear Hoby, hope you can pick up the pieces and get back on track. The forum is here to help in any way we can. Just sing out !

[wazkelly]

Hi buddy, plenty of good folks on this forum to lean on if you need a hand.

Not in the market for Tassie Real Estate and hope you find a buyer at the right price.

Cheers, Waz

[Kick]

Always sad to hear this kind of news. I wish you all the best in what is in your future...

[Simon Barden]

Sorry to hear this. All the best for and hoping for a happier future for you.

[Hobastard]

Can only get better from here..
..