Noob inquiring about finishing a strat black

[Chrisp250]

Hi everyone,
I'm considering building a guitar for my son and he would like a black strat.

Before I jump into the project, I'd like to find out whether this is something I can achieve as I haven't got a spray gun/compressor, breathing apparatus, etc. Also I understand that rattle can paints are not very good as enamels could affect the sound of the guitar and also it's quite tricky to get good result.

From what I've been reading, I could use wipe-on-poly for a clear top coat with reasonably good results, the question is what can use for a black colour coat before the clear coat?
Also what would be the process? Something like:
- Sanding (400 grit?)
- etc.

Thanks in advance
Christian

[wokkaboy]

Hi Christian, welcome to the forum, Would your son prefer a black stain or a solid black colour ?
I've got pretty good results from rattle cans if you spend a bit more and get better quality paints.
Have a look on the Guitar Australia website there are some good aerosol nitro spray cans and the Behlen Nitro clear coats are good quality. Link below
https://www.guitaraust.com.au/

[stan]

The Belen Nitro sprays are great, but you must wear good breathing protection - very important.
A strat is a fairly straight forward guitar, and plenty have been done here, so go easy and you'll be fine.
Sand the body to about 400 grit like you say. If you use paint, you should prime. If you use stain you won't.
Make sure your clears and colours are compatible - where possible use the same brands, or at least the same type of product.
Excellent results can be obtained from spray cans - you need a good day - not too hot or cold, and not too humid. Put your cans in warm water prior to use - it aids paint flow and give a smoother spray. Several light coats are always better that a few heavy ones.
Lots of help here - good luck and enjoy

[Chrisp250]

Thanks for the prompt advice.
I watched a couple of Behlen videos and the process seems a lot more involved than using something like Black Stump Dingotone. Also the price difference would be substantial by the time you add up all the needed components + a good respirator. I know one would give me a solid black and the other more of a stain black but he doesn't seem too fussed as long as it's a black strat.
His birthday is in July, so I still have a bit of time to think which way I'll go. I might do a bit more research on solid colour finishes too and maybe it won't seem as daunting.
Thanks again
Christian

[dave.king1]

I know some will frown on it but automotive acrylic works well, I used it on my STA-1 kit and am very happy with it

[Simon Barden]

Hi. When you say your son wants a 'Black Strat', does he want it to look like a specific guitar e.g Clapton's 'Blackie' or Dave Gilmour's black Strat, or is he happy for any Strat style so long as it's black? If the former, then he's not really going to want a stained finish. If the latter, then all the options are open to you.

Vapour masks aren't that expensive, and really should be used for any sort of spraying. You don't need a complete head mask with motorised air supply etc. unless you are doing an awful lot of spraying (where you'd also have access to a pro spray booth).

Something like this would be more than adequate for the occasional spray - https://www.bunnings.com.au/scott-safety-respirator-abekp2-medium-032175anz_p5820640. This has replaceable filters, though you can get cheaper disposable masks. But make sure it's a vapour mask - dust masks are no good. They need to be tight-fitting and you shouldn't be able to smell any solvent if they are fitted and working well. If after a few hours in total of spraying you start to smell solvent - then it's time to stop and replace the filters (or get a new disposable mask). The use of thin rubber gloves and eye protection are also advised.

But whatever finish you decide to use, note that the stain or black spray coat is not the end of the process and it's the clear coating, then sanding and polishing afterwards, that gives the shine.

[Chrisp250]

Thanks guys.
I found this chart (http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/Nitrocellulose_Finishing_Schedule.html) which is a good summary of the process with nitrocellulose. I wonder if there's a similar thing somewhere for acrylics.
Cheers
Christian

[dave.king1]

Here's my Strat finished in SCA acrylic auto paint.

15956

The pups have been replaced now with Seymour Duncan stacked HBs that I have yet to source black covers for

[Chrisp250]

That looks beautiful. Do you mind giving me a rundown of your process and what products you used?
Thanks

[dave.king1]

Pretty straight forward really.
Feast Watson maple stain on the back of the neck and headstock
Sanding sealer on the body but no grain filling which with hindsight I should have done
3 coats of acrylic undercoat - light sand
5 coats of acrylic colour - light sand
5 coats of acrylic clear - light sand and buff with Maguires
Citrus oil on the fretboard

All of this followed a lot of sanding before the rattle cans came out, all of the paint coats were very thin.

[Chrisp250]

Thanks a lot Dave. What's a good brand of acrylic aerosols? Also roughly just so that I get an idea, how long is the sanding process? I know it depends on how you receive the body, but people keep saying sanding sanding and more sanding. Are we talking a couple hours? 5 hours? Or more?
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just getting started on this journey.
Christian

[dave.king1]

No worries Christian, as they sand until you are totally stuffed and you're about half way there.

To be honest I don't know how long I sanded for but it was a bit here and a bit there over quite a few days, I did have to go to a lot of extra effort because I smoothed out the transition of the forearm and belly cuts with a palm sander using coarse grit so that they blend into the body rather than being angular as they are in the kit.

As per the advice of the others on here you don't want to go much below 400 grit on the bare wood because you need a bit of key in the surface not something totally glassy.

Take care sanding basswood because it's very soft and it's very easy to remove more than you want and also very easy to scar the surface of the wood if you get a crease in the sand paper.

The paint is branded SCA ( Supercheap Auto )

Where abouts are you located Christian you will most likely find an experienced builder near by, perhaps adding a broad location in your profile could help.

[Chrisp250]

Thanks Dave.
I'm in Cooma NSW but spend quite a bit of time in Canberra.

[corsair]

Now this may be heretical, but hear me out...

I get a bloke what does motorcycle tins to do any artwork I have, and that these days includes all colour coats. My reasoning is that I've used spray bombs and guns and been pleased with the results. Then I've had one done by my bloke, and never again will I buggerise about with paint; the job is beyond good and the clear is a two pack acrylic that just jumps off the gun. This finish, when cured, is also absolutely bullet proof; tough as old boots and that, to me, is important as I may take the guitars and play 'em out!

I know, I know... this sort of goes against the ethos of building your own, but I know my limitations and I do all of the prep work; I've had bodies come back to me because he's not 100% happy with the sanding!!

It also helps that he doesn't charge me anything like the going rate... and I know how much he charges to do a set of bike tins!!

My point, I suppose, is don't get locked into a single way of thinking and/or doing things - there's always options and sometimes, outsourcing a vital part of a job can be the best way in the long run!!

[Chrisp250]

Thanks Corsair.
I get your point and if I was trying to put out the best guitar ever I would definitely go down that road. Another option would be to buy a cheap Squier and improve it. I can do a bit of fretwork, adjust the neck, upgrade the electronics, etc.
However. in this case as I'm trying to build something for my son and I would prefer to do as much as I can myself, even if it's not top notch. I think he would appreciate that more.
Cheers
Christian

[dave.king1]

Thanks Corsair.
I get your point and if I was trying to put out the best guitar ever I would definitely go down that road. Another option would be to buy a cheap Squier and improve it. I can do a bit of fretwork, adjust the neck, upgrade the electronics, etc.
However. in this case as I'm trying to build something for my son and I would prefer to do as much as I can myself, even if it's not top notch. I think he would appreciate that more.
Cheers
Christian

This + 1

Personally I wouldn't buy a cheap Squier, I have a Classic Vibe Thinline that is brilliant but you would spend close to 3 times as much for this as you would for an Affinity ( the last best street price I found in Oz was close to a gorilla, I paid $500.00 in Bali three years ago )

[wazkelly]

I have been down the let an auto spray painter do the job and it killed the tone by making it sound too bright and seriously lacked any warmth at all.

Some may want to bring up the tone wood argument and there are plenty of opinions on that topic and I lean more towards letting the timber talk rather than kill it with too much dense finish as that reflects the sound more than projecting the resonating body sound.

[andrewdosborne]

I have been down the let an auto spray painter do the job and it killed the tone by making it sound too bright and seriously lacked any warmth at all.

Some may want to bring up the tone wood argument and there are plenty of opinions on that topic and I lean more towards letting the timber talk rather than kill it with too much dense finish as that reflects the sound more than projecting the resonating body sound.
Yes, thinner the finish the better. I recently had a play on one of the new American Fender Elite series Jazz basses (natural ash finish) Lacked resonance with what I could only put down to the rather thick gloss polyurethane finish. A real disappointment considering the asking price

Sent from Android Nougat

[corsair]

I really don't know if the whole tonewood/thin finish argument is particularly valid at anything over lounge room volumes... on a solid body electric guitar!! After 25+ years of gigging at stage volumes, I'd be prepared to bet that all noise coming from the FOH is pickup/FX generated with not a jot of noticeable tonewood nuance.

As an example of bodywood snobbery over pragmatism, Alembic style thru necks were all the rage in the early 80s, the premise being that the strings would resonate better if they were attached to the same piece of wood at both ends.... which was fine in theory but then Floyd Rose floating trems became popular and people were carving huge holes through the neck/body to fit the bridge. The affect on the sound from a guitar thus modified was negligable, especially at stage volume. Guitar history is littered with just such "You beaut!" moments which under closer examination, prove a little wobbly!

Personally, I believe that on a solid body electric guitar, wood and construction style - butcher block, solid wood, plywood - matter less than quality pickups and electronic components. Of course, on an acoustic or hollow body guitar, all bets are off ....

And, of course, we often like the way natural timbers look and feel under our hands, and once again, that's a whole different kettle of petunias...

YMMV....

[wazkelly]

Hi Corsair, my comments relate back to when I had 2 exactly the same quite rare Ibanez Bass Guitars which had a P Bass body with P & J Pickups and fitted with a J style neck. Both were off white coloured and being only 22 at the time thought the reliced one needed a new paint job and ended up letting a panel beater spray it black.

Always played the same amp settings and when switching between the 2 the black one sounded too bright and thin compared to the other one that was left untouched where before the respray they sounded identical. The only difference was in the refinish.

Here is a picture from the original catalogue, it is the white one on the left and only ever seen the two I owned and none ever since.
1598915990

Same deal on my original Explorer (2nd picture above) which was painted black by Chris Kinman who was an up & coming luthier come guitar builder in Brisbane during early 1980's. When it was Korina and with a few chunks missing it had lots of mids but after the black respray (probably nitro) they also disappeared. Again the only difference was the refinish and on both occasions it had a massive impact to the overall sound.

Acknowledge your comments about electronic signal being projected through FOH but if miced or DI'd both Bass guitars sounded different. Your theory makes sense but in both of my refinish experiences the natural earthy tones disappeared. Mind you, I didn't use a lot of signal processors as was the go back in the 80's which tend to disguise and distort the true sound anyways so had to rely on what the pickups sent to whichever amp that was supplying the grunt for the final sound. If anything, going through FOH just magnified the differences even more, so much so that swapping axes caused frowns on the face of the sound guy trying to figure why the mix had changed.

[Chrisp250]

That's quite a good experience Wazkelly. I would have thought a heavy hard coat would have killed the higher frequencies rather than the low/mid ones, but hey, you live and learn.

I went to Bunnings today to have a look. They had a RO sander at a very good price, but the guys there put me off buying it. They didn't think it would be worth it for a guitar. I did buy though a 12V $22 polisher, cheaper than getting a buffing tool for my drill.

Also for anyone interested, Super Cheap Auto currently has a very good deal on Meguiars polishing products.

Cheers
Christian

[corsair]

Thanks for that, Waz - funny how experiences differ, isn't it?!

The other perennial issue that makes my teeth itch is the bolt on/set/thru neck discussion! I've got, or had, examples of each and do you know, I just can't hear a difference between 'em.... at stage volume or indeed, lounge room volume?! That's probably just the tinnitus, though... :D

I didn't realise Ibanez did a Moderne, though!! I had a 2588 LP Recording copy for a picosecond in the late 70s - that thing was HEAVY and got moved on very quickly...

[wazkelly]

Thanks for that, Waz - funny how experiences differ, isn't it?!

The other perennial issue that makes my teeth itch is the bolt on/set/thru neck discussion! I've got, or had, examples of each and do you know, I just can't hear a difference between 'em.... at stage volume or indeed, lounge room volume?! That's probably just the tinnitus, though... :D

I didn't realise Ibanez did a Moderne, though!! I had a 2588 LP Recording copy for a picosecond in the late 70s - that thing was HEAVY and got moved on very quickly...

Plenty of discussion topics there.....for me it is firstly how the axe feels to play unplugged cause if it is a pig it will never get played too much. Next is the sound as some can be as dead as but when unplugged you tend to get a fair indication as to how things are going to turn out once amplified. Method of construction comes into consideration just ahead of how it looks and I have to agree about the bolt-on vs the rest as Fender and many other brands have sold millions made that way with plenty of loyal followers. That said, my Ric 4003 has a thru body neck but it's best attribute is the fast neck followed by the unique pickup sound and the main reasons why I bought it.

Yes, Ibanez did a lot of Fender & Gibson copies back in the lawsuit era. Never seen a Moderne anywhere other than in catalogues and suspect one would be very rare indeed not that the shape is my cup of tea. Strangely with a lot of their Gibson copies some were bolt-ons and others like my Explorer were set necks. Was your LP a bolt-on as most of the LP Customs from that era were.

[corsair]

Was your LP a bolt-on as most of the LP Customs from that era were.

I can't remember but yes; I suspect it was.

We've got a little OT - my apologies to the OP! :rolleyes:

[mjg]

Hey Christian,

Did you decide on a finish for the Strat? I'm at the same point - doing a guitar for my son, he wants black or dark dark red, and we're looking at whether to spray or stain it.

So far I've thought about Dingotone, maybe mixing a black with a red. Or fountain pen ink. Or spray cans with clear coat. Have been experimenting with some tinted transparent oil finishes that I have from other woodwork, but can't get that dark enough without too many coats, at which point it looks streaky and ugly.

Interested to hear how you're going with your finish... I'm also in Canberra if you wanted to compare noob notes.

Matt.

[mjg]

Wazkelly,

I had a look at the pictures and build of your J bass - that looks like a nice way to colour. How much ink do you reckon you would have used to do each coat? I've looked at the site you got it from, looks like they only sell 30ml containers now. Do you water it down before applying? I know you mixed with Colortone, but do you then water down the mix further?

[Chrisp250]

Hi Matt,
Thanks for reaching out.
My son doesn't care whether it's a solid colour or not, so I was just going to go with Dingotone which seems to be the most straightforward.

I'm currently in the middle of a build of a telecaster with a Bigsby bridge which is going quite slow. I'm doing that in Uluru Red. You can have a look in the build diaries.

Whereabouts in Canberra are you?

Cheers
Christian

[Andy40]

Hey Chrisp,

Are you guys melting yet in Canberra!

Anyway here's my 2 cents

I have painted guitars with different types of rattle cans. At any volume I play, it does not matter whether it was painted with enamel paints or acrylic, the guitars still sound great. Enamel paints from bunnings are fine, but I now prefer the Auto acrylic paints from Supercheap Auto.

If you paint it black, you will need to spent a lot of time getting the tiny scratches out of the finish (everything shows up). Most likely you will need to use micromesh pads, Meguiars cut and polish and Meguiars ScratchX. Phrozin has done a great tutorial on his last build diary using rattle cans here http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=6790&page=4

I have also used plenty of Dingotone. Great finish for a stained look, non-toxic, but is a bit of an artform to get it right. Takes a little longer than most finishes to dry as it has no chemical driers in it. Basswood soaks up plenty of colour so no problem betting it black. if you are prepared to take your time with it and you wont get frustrated. If you want a faster build, use rattle cans.

I have also bought a cheap squier before too. They are made of basswood, just like the ST-1, but the body cut of the ST-1 is better (a but thicker) than a squier strat. Most of a strats tone comes from the tremolo block interacting with the body and I don't have an issue with basswood bodies, they are brilliantly light and comfortable to play for hours.

Good luck mate

[mjg]

Hi guys,

I'm in Kaleen - north side.

I'm going to order the kit in a few weeks, put it together without the finish so we can get a look at it, then we might be able to make a decision on what sort of finish he wants.

Thanks for the info on spray cans Andy40 - that's useful to know.

Yeah, not quite melting now - 41 degrees on Friday and Saturday, and this morning it is 6 degrees. :-/

[Chrisp250]

Hi guys,

I'm in Kaleen - north side.

I'm going to order the kit in a few weeks, put it together without the finish so we can get a look at it, then we might be able to make a decision on what sort of finish he wants.

Thanks for the info on spray cans Andy40 - that's useful to know.

Yeah, not quite melting now - 41 degrees on Friday and Saturday, and this morning it is 6 degrees. :-/

Cool. I'm in Dickson.
At the moment I'm trying to fix the neck of me Tele that I'm staining amber with Dingotone. For some reason it went a bit lumpy.

Cheers
Christian