Beetroot juice

[Open_g]

Has anyone tried using beetroot as either the main colour or the pop colour for the grain? I have plenty of beetroot in the garden ready willing and able to make the sacrifice for the sake of art.

[stan]

do it man! should be fine as long as you give it plenty of time to dry

i used coffee to pop the flame on my sister's guitar, see link below

[Swanny]

Give it a go on a piece of ply or pine, see what happens!

[wokkaboy]

Hi Open G, as Swanny suggest see what it does to pine or ply. Not sure if it will be lightfast and keep its colour but would be a cool colour.
If it works I'll be using some betroot juice on a future build, love the colour !

[dingobass]

Natural dyes can be problematic, as Woks so sagely pointed out it may not be light fast.

Having said that, I can remember my Nana using Beetroot to dye wool. (It made a nice earthy brown dye)
Apparently there is a thing called a mordant that fixes the dye colour, what that mordant for Beetroot is I don't know but if you hit one of the Secret Nana Buisiness websites I am sure they will tell you.

So, get in the shed and do some nutty professor experiments :)

[tonyw]

vinegar or salt or alum can be used as a mordant, but i wouldnt have a clue which for beetroot, thats if it needs it at all. I would have to ask my hippy, natropath, tie dyed sister, shes into dying her own spun wool etc.

[dingobass]

Definitely needs a mordant, Tony said alum and that's ringing a bell.
Just tried to call Nana, but being 96 she was having that all important afternoon nap :)

[Open_g]

Done my google search. No mordant for beetroot. Cochineal is a colour that can be set with a mordant. Spent my xmas break tie-dyeing. The die I was using comes in a range of colours with the Alum mordant mixed in with the dye powder. Add cold water and use within 20 minutes. Let set for 24 hours in warmth and wash off excess dye. Might give them a go. They attach chemically to the cellulose molecules in natural fibres so should work well with wood. I will do the mad scientist thing tomorrow and report back.

[dingobass]

Excellent stuff Gman!
Really looking forwards to seeing what your nutty professor experiments come up with.

[wazkelly]

Would the beetroot juice eventually oxidise and therefore change colour? Presume that is what the mordant is all about?

Most of the juice in canned beetroot contains that much vinegar and sugar it is ridiculous.

[dingobass]

Good point Wazz. Mordants are more about fixing dye so it won't wash out etc.

As for colour retention vs oxidisation, that is a question we will have to wait for the answer for..

Before I took to Luthiery full time, I was a Stonemason.
I had a restoration job on a heritage building in Sydney and the mortar was a pinkish brown.
Never saw that before in my life, I initially thought they had used a pink sand but on closer inspection I saw it wasn't the sand..
Did my research (asked an old timer Stony) and discovered the mortar was probably stained with Ox blood!!!

So off I go to the local slaughter yard and got a 20litre drum to run some tests.
When fresh the mortar was pink, but over a few weeks it changed to the pinkish brown due to oxidisation so your question about colour fastness is a beauty :)

[stan]

I wonder if there would be better success with a sliced whole Beetroot as opposed to canned or the juice from canned...
Fully untainted then and you are using the pure juice, you could use a smaller beet cut in half and rub it in

[Open_g]

I did 2 woods, marine ply and a hardwood in 2 colours, red and blue.
This is the result of dyeing then sanding marine ply. I overlapped the colours to see how they would blend.8366
Nothing exciting. The wood does not like to take stain.
8367
Sanding did not improve the look.

[Swanny]

Plywood seems to be a denser timber, as its manufactured for strength, which will make it less receptive to dyes. It still gives an idea on colour, though.

[Open_g]

Here is the hardwood. It has a few remnants of black and red ink after I sanded it. Most of the ink, a previous attempt at staining, disappeared. The dark is shadows, it was late afternoon.
8368
Here is the wood dyed red
8369
This is after sanding back vigorously this morning. I wanted to make sure it was not just a film on the surface like most of the ink had been.
8370
And finally what is looks like wetted
8371

Much better than the ply. You need some grain to hold the colour.

[Open_g]

Last version was blue on hardwood.
When I first dyed it late last night it looked black. I was thinking OMG I have gone too far. Dried lighter.
8372
After sanding the grain reappeared.
8373
It looked good wet
8374

Just to show there was a chemical reaction between the dye and the wood here is a picture as the water was drying. You can see the colour is across the full piece of wood even after sanding.
8375

I guess if I went over the top of the blue with a red dye I would get grades of red and purple.
The dye I used is Tulip tie-dye. You can get it at Spotlight (expensive) or Riot Art and Craft (cheaper when I bought it in December). And just so you don't die wondering here is 1 of the 10 t-shirts I did. Shibori method.
8376

[stan]

really interesting to see those results, and how well it soaks in.
shirt looks cool!

[wokkaboy]

cool tests you have done Open Gman !

the shirt does look cool and some interesting colours you got !

[Rabbitz]

As it happens SWMBO was cooking some beetroot from our garden as I read this thread.

What else is a guy to do?

I grabbed a piece of pine and the scraps bucket.

I gave the pine a very quick sand, just to key the surface.

I simply rubbed discarded pieces of the boiled beetroot onto the pine (and scrapped off the vegetable matter that stuck to the rough surface).

The images were taken a few minutes after, as a control:

8378

8379

[wazkelly]

Hi Col, can you post a photo after it has been left to oxidise for say a week or two as I suspect it will go slightly browner over time unless cured somehow.

[Swanny]

Hi Col, can you post a photo after it has been left to oxidise for say a week or two as I suspect it will go slightly browner over time unless cured somehow.

maybe cover half in a clear coat first, to see if that preserves the colour, as well.

[dingobass]

Wot Swanny sed.
Thinking the coat would have to be UV resistant though, so you will need a Hazmat suit :p

[Rabbitz]

I should have outlined what I am going to do.

I will let "the stain" dry for a day or so, then coat half with a water based poly-urethane ('coz that's what I have to hand).

I will then leave it in a place with much sunlight, but out of direct sunlight for a couple of weeks. Finally, full sun for a week.

[Rabbitz]

So an update.

In simple terms - forget it.

After a couple of weeks of drying the beetroot stain had faded a small amount.

When I applied the poly over half of the stain, it lifted most of it onto the cloth.

After a few more weeks in the shed (out of direct sunlight), the colour has faded almost completely.

I don't think it is permanent enough on wood - a white shirt maybe different...

[wazkelly]

Good on you for giving it a go and taking one for the team Col.

I just finished applying an inkjet ink colour to a flame top Tele and was worried that using a rag for the clear top coat would soak up too much of the stain colour and just used a paint brush to apply the first coat of TO. Worked well as did the same approach on both of my Explorers over DT a few months ago as I was also worried how ragging would affect the outcome too.

Good way to get down the first coat that usually soaks up plenty without needing to rub it on. I have found that subsequent coats go on much easier too.