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kimball492
02-02-2016, 02:15 AM
Interesting article thought you guys might like to read. https://reverb.com/blog/How-Guitar-Construction-Will-Change-in-the-Coming-Years?_aid=newsletter&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cd99951f39-rn160201_Deals&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5889ed6702-cd99951f39-56321901

Andy40
02-02-2016, 06:21 AM
Did not know that about Rosewood....interesting

DrNomis_44
02-02-2016, 04:45 PM
Yep, very interesting kimball492, I guess the US Federal Marshalls invoked the Lacey Act probably because Ebony and Rosewood trees are dwindling in numbers.

Ned Steinberger, the guy who invented and designed the Headless Guitar and Bass used Carbon Fibre and Stainless Steel frets on his guitars as alternative materials.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that the fretboard on my LP studio is made using Granadillo Wood, it looks a bit like Rosewood to me.

kimball492
03-02-2016, 08:56 PM
Pleasure guys glad you enjoyed the read.

keloooe
04-02-2016, 03:50 AM
Nice read KB and yes Nomis, Gibbo are starting to use different woods, granadillo is one of them, their new LP Juniors have baked maple which is definitely interesting...

DrNomis_44
04-02-2016, 02:07 PM
Nice read KB and yes Nomis, Gibbo are starting to use different woods, granadillo is one of them, their new LP Juniors have baked maple which is definitely interesting...



For sure, there was a guitar maker in the seventies, I think it was Travis Bean, who was making guitars that featured necks made from Aluminium (probably Aircraft grade), Jerry Garcia, the guitarist in the sixties Psychedelic Band The Grateful Dead used to own one and was impressed by it's stability and playability.


So, I'm guessing that manufacturers will start looking more and more at using alternative woods and materials for building guitars in the near future, who knows, we may eventually see the first guitar that uses Digital Electronics technology which requires no strings and can sound practically identical to traditionally made guitars (non-software based).

dingobass
04-02-2016, 06:37 PM
But lets not forget our own tonewoods.
Tassie Blackwood
Tassie Myrtle
Black hearted Sassafras
Queensland Maple
Beef Heart
Gidgee
Boonari
Just to name a few..

As Aussie builders, I feel we should turn away from imported timbers as we have plenty of our own

wazkelly
04-02-2016, 07:42 PM
Sounds like we will see more maple fret board versions from the volume manufacturers which is not a bad thing and probably better than the plastic wood stuff they will use to substitute for ebony & rosewood.

I think Kramer had an aluminium neck back in the 70's or early 80's which was not popular however I wish I had the spare coin when Steinberger Basses were introduced. From memory they were about $1,800 around 1983/84 and you could buy the flashiest Roland synth for about the same amount of money or had change in your pocket if you bought a run of the mill Gibbo LP from the same era.

He DB, suppose it is a bit too expensive to set up some kits with those Aussie timbers you listed therefore only for the bravehearts having a crack at a scratchy?

dingobass
04-02-2016, 08:24 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...... Steinberger Bass.........
I can remember how blown away we were when these bad boys hit the market.

Anyhoo, no chance of getting our kits made from Aussie timbers as the cost would be over the top..

kimball492
05-02-2016, 12:56 AM
Here you go DB, does wood make a difference to guitars lol. Supposedly they recorded a Strat and a Gittler blind recordings and the audience picked the Gittler as the wooden recorded guitar. I'd like to have a play but aesthetically I just prefer wood, personal I guess.

http://youtu.be/2eEB-vJic_o

wazkelly
05-02-2016, 06:15 PM
Very interesting. With all the plug straight into computer stuff happening it only figures that the input device would also evolve.

Bit old school myself and still prefer a real guitar plugged into a real amp and making lots of loud noise.

dingobass
06-02-2016, 08:49 AM
The old Tonewood debate :)

Personally, from many years of this stuff I have come to the conclusion that the nicest sounding instruments are made from quarter sawn timber with a nice tap tone.
Add a well made neck and good quality hardware and electrics and you end up with a very tasty guitar.

Now I know that many will say timber etc has nothing to do with the tone but I disagree.
Slap a high end pup into a body made of, let's say for arguments sake, MDF you will get a muddy tone.
Same pup in decent timber and the whole dynamic changes.
My conclusion is that all parts must act together, ie: the material used changes the way the strings vibrate so why use rubbish and expect a great sound?

Of course there are man made materials that posses a nice tonal quality, classic example is the ubiquitous Steinberger.

tonyw
06-02-2016, 09:26 AM
But DB my Danelectro is made of MDF, and it has a low end pickups, lets have a listen,

Heres the Dano on one of my tracks "Hotel"

https://soundcloud.com/tdwatkins/hotel

But then again i refuse to enter this old chestnut of a debate, people believe and hear what they think is right, and what they think they are hearing is how they are going to see it, me after more years than i want to think about around isntruments, i gradually changed my opinions. I am a pickups and wiring man if it fails there all is lost, no signal and you have an expensive piece of timber to hold. Then again a $50 guitar sounds better in the hands of a master than a 5k guitar sound in the hands of a novice.

Just play the bloody things ;)

dingobass
06-02-2016, 12:06 PM
Without being rude, most Dano's that I have come across have, shall we say, a "unique" sound...
And yes, it is the players ability and skill but at the end of the day if you are going to build, why not use the very best materials and give your axe a head start?

The very best Luthiers I know would never use MDF or poo oil on their builds. Why? Because both products are crap for Guitar building and have no place in this industry.

kimball492
06-02-2016, 12:57 PM
Db you heard of tone cardboard lol
http://youtu.be/7Oo2H-W7d6A

dingobass
06-02-2016, 01:38 PM
Yeah, a great idea for folk with serious back injury :p

tonyw
06-02-2016, 01:51 PM
Without being rude, most Dano's that I have come across have, shall we say, a "unique" sound...
And yes, it is the players ability and skill but at the end of the day if you are going to build, why not use the very best materials and give your axe a head start?

The very best Luthiers I know would never use MDF or poo oil on their builds. Why? Because both products are crap for Guitar building and have no place in this industry.

Lets say we agree to disagree :) and who are the best Luthiers? i know hundreds of great Luthiers, my best mate is 3rd generation, my brother has worked exclusively for the Chinese Symphony on their instruments and has trained dozens of Luthiers, and now makes hand crafted special order violins, funny he agrees with me as far as electronic instruments and wood go, agree or disagree its an individual thing.

When you put an electric guitar body against your body mass you have just nullified any minute tonal characteristics it may have had because the so called wood vibrations bcome muted by the mass, lets add a 15mter cable some effects, then wack it through an amp and the timber shines through, not.

As for Tru Oil its nothing more than a polymerized linseed oil with other natural oils and plenty of guitar makers world wide use it, oh wait guitar timbers need to breath yeh righto. Only thing i wouldnt use it on is Cocobolo or Rosewood, these timbers are too oily. I hgave used it with great succes on an Swamp Ash Body and a neck, i love its feel on a neck

I agree that a guitar should have the best components, pickups, wiring, pots, bridge, tuners, jacks etc. Leo Fender picked the best timber for his guitars based on price, cheapest was best, same with his alnico and also because alnico was scarce, Leo was a tight wad. Great necks are a must for intonation and staying straight and in tune but the best neck i have here is on a 1963 Watkins Rapier, these were a cheap build guitar in their day and its probably the sweetest sounding guitar i own

I pick my personal wood on look and weight, i really dont give a flog what it is, necks i do care about and thats another story, but tassie hardwood makes a great cigarbox neck ;)

Thats enough going around in circles on that debate from me :cool:

Andy40
06-02-2016, 03:29 PM
But DB my Danelectro is made of MDF, and it has a low end pickups, lets have a listen,

Heres the Dano on one of my tracks "Hotel"

https://soundcloud.com/tdwatkins/hotel


Just play the bloody things ;)

I enjoyed listening to that Tony, thanks

tonyw
06-02-2016, 03:36 PM
I enjoyed listening to that Tony, thanks


cheers Andy glad you liked it

dingobass
06-02-2016, 03:53 PM
As for crap oil, I am currently investigating the ingredients.
Petro chemicals, naphtha, possibly toluene so there are three known carcinogens before we even start.
If you just read the SDS you could be misled, you also need to fossic around to find out what the coded ingredients are and that's when the hair on the back of my neck started to stand up. This investigation is on going.

So, when you add all of these chemicals to a product, how the f#ck can you say it's natural?
The only natural thing I have seen in this crap is the Linseed oil.

Therefore, if folk want to use this shite and not take protective measures the same as you would with spray painting, go right ahead.
I will not be attending your funeral.

tonyw
06-02-2016, 04:46 PM
Its certainly is hazardous and dangerous and if your like me you read labels and wear protective clothing, but no where near as harmful as shooting nitro for instance. I have an Agricultural Chemical Users Permit, required for the use of restricted chemicals stipulated by the APVMA and this stuff in comparison to what i handle when i work on properties is nothing. I see people walking around happily spraying roundup in their shorts and thongs, nothing is going to stop stupidity where chemicals are concerned, by the way there's never been a death from tru oil in its 30years of manufacture.

https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/getattachment/Resources/Safety-Data-Sheets/23123,-23035,-23132-Tru-Oil-Saftey-Data-Sheet.pdf.aspx

I am interested in using that new beta Dingo kit you will be selling though, i have 2 teles in progress.

wazkelly
06-02-2016, 05:30 PM
Interesting debate and not one that everyone can agree on.

I will hang a couple of thoughts out there for some more educated than me to provide their explanations.

With Gibson's why does the sound vary between most of their guitars if using same PUP's and hardware? LP's sound much meatier than SG and that probably has something to do with body mass as they are mostly made from mahogany, and as you move through the range Explorer sounds way different to Flying V, again body mass may be the culprit and also some of these did use different timber.

With Fender when you compare their 2 main guitars being Strat & Tele, why then on Bridge PUP can you tell which one is the Tele as essentially they are using similar spacing and positioning of that rear PUP? Maybe is it body mass at work again?

How about hollow bodies? Thin ones sound completely different to thick body ones such as ES335 vs White Falcon? Is that the timber talking or something else. Now I know the argument will take off in a different direction as these 2 examples use totally different PUP's however my point is that thin hollow bodies also produce a thinner sound hence why a lot of old timer jazz players used fat bodied axes.

I am no expert, just a pen pusher by day and occasionally get my hands dirty playing with timber in my time off. The only thing I do know is what is pleasant to my ear and when evaluating an axe always close my eyes to hear the guitar, not look at what it was constructed from, and once having tuned into it's unique voice then had a look at what was contributing to that sound. Yes, electronics can help but also disguise what is really going on.

tonyw
06-02-2016, 06:19 PM
Waz with the fender tele and the strat bridge there are alot of differences in the winding and the construction of the pickups and a tele neck is wound with thinner wire 43AWG the bridge has a large plate, lots of eddys floating around.

Now to do a true A B you need 2 exact guitars say a strat with different bodies say Ash and a one made with a packing crate with the exact same pickups and wiring harness to get some idea.

If i play guitar A LP with P90 then play an SG P90 is everthing going to be identical?, my string attack the string vibrating over the pickup height, are these identical? are the pots identical some gibs have 300k pots, is the inductance of both pickups identical, everything must be identical except the wood being used to even start to perceive there is a difference.

If people can hear a difference more power to them, its debated over and over and over, i am in the wood tone doesnt make any difference in an electric guitar, and dont get me going on pickups sprinkled with fairy dust, that some rollers carry on with, thats the area i have studied most over 45yrs+ and they make me cringe with the rubbish they come out with.

Anyway there's plenty of guitar A vs guitar B on youtube and i dont need to back my case on a forum, its what i believe and wont be changed on it until proven otherwise.

At the end of the day i dont really care if people ask me to build a guitar with a 200 yr old piece of pine because its the best stuff in the world, hey who am i to disagree with them, you want brand A pups put in sure in they go, you give the customer what he wants but if asked i will say my thoughts on this are yadyadayada.

Now i am about to wind a strat pup off a Squire affinity for a young bloke because it sounds like dogs poo, replace the pole pieces with A5 and wind it to early strat spec the charge the pole pieces, it should sound like a strat pup when i am finshed about 6.3k about 8000 turns around 1957 specs.

wazkelly
06-02-2016, 07:05 PM
All good points there Tony. Just wonder where the industry will be in another 10 - 20 years with all the technology advancement. There is so much simulated virtual sounding stuff either built-in, such as in my Vox VT40+, and then all the plug your axe into a computer simulation stuff. Still remember the good old days when plugging into a late 60's to mid 70's era Marshall with 4 x12" 25w Celestions in a slant front box was a truly unique sound. Sadly that is now too often found in all this simulated stuff that young folks may never have experienced the sound pressure waves from playing that loud nor the awesome feedback that was easily achieved. Back then you could easily pick the difference between an overdriven valve amp compared to an overdriven tranny one. Not so sure you get that level of distinction by plugging into a computer?

keloooe
06-02-2016, 07:12 PM
My band love to actually plug in to something, we just love that fully raw feeling of having an actual amp there!

dave.king1
06-02-2016, 07:16 PM
The buzz you get from standing in front of a stack with 8x12 is enormous but the bloody cicadas that now hang around 24/7 40 years later are a proper pain in the 'arris

wazkelly
06-02-2016, 07:28 PM
The buzz you get from standing in front of a stack with 8x12 is enormous but the bloody cicadas that now hang around 24/7 40 years later are a proper pain in the 'arris
Sorry Dave, can't hear a thing above the ringing in my ears haha.

Played a short while with some heavy metal head bangers in 1984 and we all had Marshalls. We rehearsed so loud that my ears would be ringing for 2 - 3 days and was the main reason I quit after just 3 months with them. Thankfully no permanent damage and hearing is still OK for a bloke my age.

Hey Kels, glad to hear about some youngsters getting into the Organic method of pure raw power because if you have a real drummer you need some grunt to be heard above all their racket.

dingobass
06-02-2016, 09:06 PM
Of course the manufacturer isn't going to implicate themselves in any ill health issues that may be caused by using their product.
Especially if said company is from the USA.
For instance, look at the trauma 245D has caused.. I can remember the rep coming to the farm trying to sell the stuff, he said it was so safe you could drink it. Dear old Granfather calmly said, "go on then" funny enough, the bloke declined. He was never welcomed on the farm again...
And then for years the manufacturing company denied any health risk a or illness linked to the evil stuff. We now know the truth.
So can we actually trust what these companies tell us?
No.

However, after talking to my old friend the gun stock builder I discovered he had a close friend (another stock builder) who died from cancer which was directly linked to some of the ingredients in said product.
Interesting as he had only ever worked with timber, had no contact with any of the chemicals involved except with said product.

If that doesn't make folk wonder then I guess nothing will.

BTW, I agree with your observations re idiots and roundup etc..... Ya can't fix stupid but ya can medicate it :p

keloooe
07-02-2016, 06:30 AM
Hey Kels, glad to hear about some youngsters getting into the Organic method of pure raw power because if you have a real drummer you need some grunt to be heard above all their racket.

Yeah our amps definitely push some air, thankfully we all have custom earplugs! Surprised the neighbors don't actually care, but if we have a show coming up we hire out a full rehearsal room for even more volume :D

tonyw
07-02-2016, 03:32 PM
Heres 2 tracks of mine

Acoustic: now lay some crud sounding acoustic guitar on me on me and i will throw the guitar back at you.

My very old acoustic straight into an SM 57 the guitar is dropped to low C and we are live in the studio, you can hear the timbre of the guitar, thats guitar tone, wood tone etc.

https://soundcloud.com/tdwatkins/naturally

Lets gun the bejeezuss out of it with my live band in the same studio with electric guitars cranked, i reckon the guitar on the right is made out of fairy dust and tru grit yep i can hear it

https://soundcloud.com/tdwatkins/made-up-my-mind

GeneralKaos
07-02-2016, 08:53 PM
Now lets all have a cold beer!!

tonyw
08-02-2016, 03:11 AM
Heres part of the Safety Data Sheet for Tru Oil, and yes extreme caution and PPE should be used when using it.


8410

PPE= personal protective equipment

dingobass
08-02-2016, 06:58 AM
Yhep, at least half of those ingredients are toxic and known carcinogens..
Trouble is, most folk think that a small exposure won't harm. Wrong!
The toxins in this stuff are known to be cumalative poisons, i.e.: they NEVER leave your system.
Ergo, small regular exposures will add up to a toxic overload.
Also, if You don't have the correct, fresh filters in your mask, well, ya may as well drink the shite.

But it is the stuff that they don't obviously declare, just use codes to describe that worries me such as the modified oil.. No one knows what the modification is other than the manufacturer.

I have a mate who knows an industrial chemist, I have asked him if he could pull the stuff apart and tell me exactly what's in there...

And to end my side of this debate, I have been talking to a hell of a lot of my colleagues and not one of them will touch the stuff for various reasons, but the main reason is a suspicion that the stuff is just plain wrong with one recurring theme, the label says GUN STOCK oil... And the stock makers I know won't use it either, most have their own recipe..
Then I jumped on a few forums and it seems that very few serious US based custom gun stock makers use it either..

tonyw
08-02-2016, 07:08 AM
I just threw the last of mine out, had it awhile, been there done that. I will do the 12string in wipe on poly, then i might give your new stuff a go on either my 52 spec tele (TV Yellow) or my Carbronita, i am thinking seafoam green???? then i might try a Beatle Bass off PBG using only natural finishes available here.

Getting ahead of myself as usual...

andrewdosborne
08-02-2016, 11:49 AM
Yhep, at least half of those ingredients are toxic and known carcinogens..
Trouble is, most folk think that a small exposure won't harm. Wrong!
The toxins in this stuff are known to be cumalative poisons, i.e.: they NEVER leave your system.
Ergo, small regular exposures will add up to a toxic overload.
Also, if You don't have the correct, fresh filters in your mask, well, ya may as well drink the shite.

But it is the stuff that they don't obviously declare, just use codes to describe that worries me such as the modified oil.. No one knows what the modification is other than the manufacturer.

I have a mate who knows an industrial chemist, I have asked him if he could pull the stuff apart and tell me exactly what's in there...

And to end my side of this debate, I have been talking to a hell of a lot of my colleagues and not one of them will touch the stuff for various reasons, but the main reason is a suspicion that the stuff is just plain wrong with one recurring theme, the label says GUN STOCK oil... And the stock makers I know won't use it either, most have their own recipe..
Then I jumped on a few forums and it seems that very few serious US based custom gun stock makers use it either..

Again wise words from DB - I also know people who have suffered immensely with chemical exposure. I've been guilty of using various toxic products over the years, we recently had a big chemical clear-out at home (disposed of correctly..)

Weeding the garden is now a wholesome family group activity where everyone can join in safely!

dingobass
08-02-2016, 03:21 PM
Yep, best to leave the garden Chemicals alone...
My Miss Fe is a Horticulturist and she has been avoiding roundup and such stuff for a few years now.
Recently began using pelargonic acid, smells like vinegar and it smashes weeds fast! Only draw back is you need to hit it every other day for a week or so but at least it won't kill Frogs or the user..
Since we stopped using roundup in our garden we have experienced a massive Frog population explosion :)

Best to leave the application of any synthetic poisons to those who have the qualifications and correct safety gear... I am sure that's something Tony will agree with me on 100%.

tonyw
08-02-2016, 04:20 PM
Oh yeah leave them well alone, people should have certificates and training just to buy that stuff but anyone can truck into the green shed and buy what they want. My last exams in September just for Auschem and Vetchem was 400 pages in a day, and you had to get 100% to pass.

I have certificates in Horticulture and Agriculture (jobs that put food on the table when music didnt), i cant even put a drop of Glyphosate (roundup and many other brand names) on a daisy without having a log of when i used it, how i used it, humidity, temperature,wind speed, how much was there when i went and got some and how much was left after i used it, how its stored etc etc.

wazkelly
08-02-2016, 06:25 PM
Just a shame that DT Mk1 is so susceptible to humidity related issues otherwise I would have persisted rather than resort to using TO for the top coats.

As for the gardening, totally agree as the only weedkiller allowed is me with a weeding fork. Not a greenie but fully understand why organic is best. For those who don't know, if buying frozen veges buy aussie made only (Birds Eye), not product of.... (most others) and not NZ as most of theirs is backyard Chinese imported shite encrusted crud loaded full of chemicals western countries banned last century. Does anyone remember recent Chinese berries that had to be recalled? NZ OHS standards are way lower than ours and sadly safety standards are not a high priority in many Asian countries either. Don't get me started on the Yanks as what they have done with food production is poisoning millions of their population.
Agriculture and food security will soon become the next boom industry.

Tweaky
08-02-2016, 09:38 PM
Well since this topic is about how guitars will be built in the future.
Check out this video of the building of French based, Sauvge 'one piece master' guitar. [10k euro]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bCWXJvrM8

A seven string version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QORO2tyWow


Then checkout the video of their lower ranged Wild Custom guitars...the Baroness Iron top silverburst...look to the right behind the guitarist, you can see the one piece in it's unique stand...the single block of wood it was carved from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG86MBccwAA

dingobass
08-02-2016, 10:03 PM
Very interesting. I have often thought about building a one piece Guitar but the one thing that has put me off is the worry that it might not be very stable...
Then I see these guys building one out of a chunk of flat sawn tree..
Might have to re visit the concept..

Thanks for that Tweaky :)

whalenb
09-02-2016, 03:31 AM
great article. thanks for posting.

Tweaky
09-02-2016, 05:54 AM
Gibson have started doing something vaguely similar in their higher end CS-335,336,339 range.....where the body, centre block and sides are all routed from a single block of mahogany....then they just put a maple cap on top.

I can understand your hesitance DB on the stability issue, it reminds me of some great old Achtops I've played, and one I've owned, that although having a mahogany/ebony/maple/ebony/mahogany laminated neck, wasn't fitted with a adjustable truss rod [well there was some sort of metal thing you could just see sticking out from beneath the fretboard overhand that could have been a truss rod, but I think it was built like the first Martin & Gibson's, where to adjust it you had to remove the neck ...what were they thinking back then?]

The neck had gradually over 60 years, got too much back bow, and there was no easy way to fix it....it got stolen before I could do anyway.

dingobass
09-02-2016, 06:34 AM
If I was to do this I would build it from a quarter sawn plank, a lot more stable.
Also a couple of carbon fiber rods as well as a two way truss should keep the neck stability...

Next time I have some spare time I might just give this a go.......