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Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 06:08 PM
First the tools you will need to buy / steal / borrow...

You need some Jeweller Blades. These are the ones I get from StewMac. As you can see they are very thin. Comes in pack of 10. And they have around 50 to 60 teeth per inch that you will use to cut on the DOWNstroke.

Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 06:10 PM
Now, if you have some Jewellers blades you naturally will need a Jewellers SAW! (Go figure!)
Here is mine acquired from Australian Luthier Supplies.

Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 06:16 PM
Now there is a trick to putting the blades into the Jewellers saw.
Step one is to unravel the extremely thin wire StewMac wrap the blades in and carefully remove a blade.
Step two, grab a plain wax candle and coat the blade by running the blade gently once or twice through the candle. This ensures less friction when cutting your MOP (mother of Pearl).
Then loosen the two keys on the Saw that will hold each end of the blade. Insert the blade and TIGHTEN ONLY the SAW HANDLE END.
Press the handle (pointy end) against your stomach and compress the space between the two keys so that you can tighten the 'loosed' key to hold the blade in place. This manoever essentially tightens the blade so that it is taut and ready for use.

Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 06:19 PM
Next up, we need to make a 'birds beak' out of wood. This apparatus will be used to position the MOP on top of the jaws of the beak so that you can begin to cut your MOP.
Below I have marked out roughly the shape of the beak on the wood. (I have used a scrap piece to show this.)

Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 06:21 PM
Off to the band saw, but any saw (other than your brand new Jewellers saw will do). And cut out the beak like so!

Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 06:26 PM
Ok - so thats the tools handled. Other than a clamp that you will need to hold the birds beak onto your work bench and possibly a good lamp so that you can see what you are doing!

dingobass
16-09-2015, 07:08 PM
Noice one Gav :)

I get my MOP from www.mopsupplies.com
These guys are great to deal with and have a massive range of shell products

This is my shell cutting doovalacky, a different take on the theme but it works well.

Gavin1393
16-09-2015, 07:39 PM
Noice one Gav :)

I get my MOP from www.mopsupplies.com
These guys are great to deal with and have a massive range of shell products

MOPsupplies are indeed terrific and the only ones I use! Of curse I mean of course the USA wont supply anyone outside of America so really great we have a local distributor!

This is my Pearl shell cutting doovalacky...... :) (Having an issue with my picture uploads all of a sudden... apparently unless I took them with my phone they are not formatted correctly....:(

dingobass
16-09-2015, 08:05 PM
I am still scratching my head as to why the US Government has banned the export of shell....
Its a real dumbarse move considering they source most of their shell from New Zealand!

wokkaboy
16-09-2015, 09:45 PM
Good tutorial Gav and DB, I'll have a read tomoz

dingobass
16-09-2015, 09:53 PM
This one is all the Gavmiesters work.... :)

stan
17-09-2015, 04:10 PM
very cool thread Gav, thanks

Rabbitz
17-09-2015, 06:51 PM
Hi Guys,

If you are looking for jewellers saw blades and saws you can do worse than this place:
http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/

They have a retail store in Sydney.

I've bought from them many times over the years and they have always been on the level.

For the "birds beak" I also like to drill a 15 or 20mm hole at the apex of the cut. This gives you so wiggle room to work the saw.

I also taper it from the edge of the hole down to the front edge, the taper is the full width of the block and the angled side (chamfer?) is on top. This allows you to work braced at different points with different thicknesses of jobs and awkward shaped jobs. It is especially helpful when filing and shaping an object.

BTW Gav, do Stewmac really sell bunches of 10 saw blades? It is more usual for it to be 12 blades.

Gavin1393
17-09-2015, 11:32 PM
For the "birds beak" I also like to drill a 15 or 20mm hole at the apex of the cut. This gives you so wiggle room to work the saw.
I used to do this as well (around 10mm worked best) but found that with my thin long sections of my logo's the hole at the apex didn't offer enough support to the MOP or Paua causing it to break while cutting on the downstroke so I dispensed with the hole. I'll post a pic of the Birds Beak you mention for this who would like the option.


I also taper it from the edge of the hole down to the front edge, the taper is the full width of the block and the angled side (chamfer?) is on top. This allows you to work braced at different points with different thicknesses of jobs and awkward shaped jobs. It is especially helpful when filing and shaping an object.
Would love a pic to help understand what you are explaining here. Sounds like a good modification.



BTW Gav, do Stewmac really sell bunches of 10 saw blades? It is more usual for it to be 12 blades.
Yes, you are right, I think they may well come in 12's but it was a good while ago that I purchased several packs since I tended to go through them rather quickly before I got the Scroll Saw.

Rabbitz
18-09-2015, 07:01 AM
Hi Gav (et al),

Here is the Jewellers Beak I was trying to describe:

5332

I used to use it for metal work (jewellery etc) and these are as brittle as MoP and Paua shell, so the hole may present issues. The taper in the V allows you to brace when filing and shaping - for the shells it will help with support as well.

kimball492
18-09-2015, 12:44 PM
Here's a tip put beeswax on the blades as they cut it makes blades last so much longer and lubricates the travel of the saw

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 01:03 PM
You will typically use MOP or Paua or Abalone of around 0.8mm to 1.1mm. This stuff breaks if you are not really careful or if you have bought too thin a blank. DON'T think about buying off e-bay as I have only ever had bad experiences. Circles that aren't circles (despite the pictures on e-bay) and many more examples where the product arrives with cracks/ chips/ etc.

The earlier recommendation by DB is the same folks I use. Always great quality and if you have issues they are very accommodating.

Before you can begin to cut your shape you will need to consider planning ahead by drawing or printing your planned shape on paper and then sticking this drawing with super glue to the MOP blank. Allow it to dry and do not put too much super glue on the MOP otherwise it doesn't dry and stick in a hurry. Just make sure you get the glue all over the paper as it all needs to be stuck down on the MOP. If you have areas where it is not glued, then the paper will be torn / moved/ damaged by the blade and this might stuff up your cutting process.

So:
Plan ahead by drawing your logo or inlay.
Choose a big enough blank
Stick it down with Super Glue
Wax your blade
Ensure that the direction of the cut is on the DOWN stroke.
Ensure the blade is properly tensioned within the saw
Position the blank around the Apex of the beak and start cutting with the blade aimed at the apex and the saw in the MOUTH of the BEAK.


BUT - Do not force the cutting process - Your blade WILL break.
ALWAYS keep the blade at 90 degrees to the blank that you are cutting - this ensures the 'sides' of the blank are cut straight and it also preserves your blade.
Take your time - my first logo took 30 - 40 minutes first time around.

It is advisable to use magnification when cutting. Scare alert on the picture.....

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 01:08 PM
Try not to be too intricate and don't try to be over clever with your first attempt. It does require enormous patience and if you do get a break, you may not need to start over. Check whether despite the break the MOP is still whole if glued together with super glue or laid within the headstock or fret board and covered in epoxy. (Sorry DB, I'll go say hello to Pest under the stairs as soon as I'm finished...)

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 01:12 PM
My logo is in three parts which allow me some latitude if I break one of the pieces. Here is an example of what my solid black printed design looks like once I have finished cutting the three pieces off the blank MOP. Note that the black paper is still firmly in place on top of the MOP because it has been glued and affixed solidly in place.

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 01:14 PM
It's actually very easy to remove the paper from the super glue and if you do have any issues some nail polish remover aka Acetone will provide instant relief...Use gloves when working with Acetone as it tends to stick around in your blood stream for a while. Pest - don't drink the stuff.

Here is the result.

wokkaboy
18-09-2015, 01:18 PM
nice one Gav, I'll have a good read of this thread later, think you have already done a similar thread ages ago.
You look cross eyed with those gogs on mate, or like Bubbles from Trailer Park Boys hahha

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 01:31 PM
Smooth off any rough edges with needle files (about $10 or so at the big green store).

Bur we are only half way there - we next need to get the inlay into position in the headstock or fret board. For this process you will need three or four items depending on how you count!

You will need some White-out fluid which you will paint over the area you will inlay. You need to paint an area larger than the inlay so that you can mark where the inlay will go.
You will need a 2mm black or blue marker pen. The prepared inlay will be positioned on top of the White-out paint job (once dry) and you will use the PEN to draw an outline around the inlay exactly where you want to position your inlay. Use the freshly prepared inlay as your template to draw your outline.

You will need a Dremel or similar drill that can run at 25000 revs!

dingobass
18-09-2015, 01:33 PM
Another way of marking out is to paint the shell with liquid paper then draw your design.
On MOP I just draw straight onto the shell with a .5mm HB pencil.

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 01:34 PM
The dremel bits that you will need will be a 1/16" 3/64" and a 1/32".

These also break easily so do not force them when using them. I highly recommend the Router Precision base shown above and below as this will save your drill bits as well as allow you to accurately set the depth using the controllers while you are drilling out the "chamber" into the wood.

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 02:03 PM
This is important.

Setting the depth and working with the router.

Turn the Dremel router upside down and lay the MOP against the drill bit on top of the Router base of the UNPLUGGED Router. Now set the depth so that the drill bit is even with height of the MOP. If you set the depth so that the drill bit is higher than the MOP, your inlay will end up BELOW the level of the wood surrounding the inlay. To fix this you may need to add 'saw dust' beneath the inlay. If you set the drill bit to slightly below the MOP you can sand the MOP down and get a perfect job with a little more sanding than is necessary! Hence try get it exact. The 'thickness' of the super glue or Epoxy will potentially allow the MOP to protrude slightly so that is can be sanded level with the wood around the chamber.

Make sure the drill bit is secure in the router collett and that the depth controllers are tight as you don't want to find after you have drilled that these released and you now have a 3mm deep chamber instead of a 1.1 mm chamber (if you used 1.1mm blank MOP!
Now turn the electrics on.
Set the Dremel to 25000 revs, and be careful.

Work from the centre of your inlay outwards in an anti-clockwise direction.
Be especially careful at the edges where your lines are drawn. A slip or loose grip could see the dremel careering across your headstock!

dingobass
18-09-2015, 03:06 PM
A general rule of thumb that I use is to never set the depth of cut deeper than the diameter of the router bit.
Sure, this means you may have to go over it twice with the finer bits but better that than bust a bit halfway through a job....

This is also a another reason to cut the centre out first with the larger diameter bit. You can set this one to the correct depth.
When you get close to the edge on intricate designs it is much easier to setup the finer bits as the final depth is already set.

wokkaboy
18-09-2015, 03:11 PM
and what sort of comments come out of the man cave DB when you break a tiny router bit ?

dingobass
18-09-2015, 03:39 PM
In order to keep our G rating, I decline to repeat the words used.....

wokkaboy
18-09-2015, 04:01 PM
haha I got a fair idea DB what is said
Do you look like Bubbles when you got your magnified gogs on too DB ? haha

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 04:20 PM
and what sort of comments come out of the man cave DB when you break a tiny router bit ?

Gosh! Darn it! Sugga!

Gavin1393
18-09-2015, 04:25 PM
A general rule of thumb that I use is to never set the depth of cut deeper than the diameter of the router bit.


Agree completely!

The 1/32" dremel drill bit translates to a 0.8mm MOP blank and the 3/64' has you covered up to 1.2mm.

Tweaky
20-11-2015, 03:11 PM
I just got to say, Thanks for all this info, it's great to find it.

A question...what is the recommended thickness of inlay to use?
I went to the linked website to source the shell....seems it comes in 1mm - 1.3mm and greater.
Am I correct in assuming that 1.3mm would be pretty much the optimum thickness?

After reading this thread, I did a search and found this YouTube video on how to clean up and cut shell found at the beach ;)
Great for me as I'm very close to Sydney's Eastern suburbs beaches .

Hope somebody finds this video useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A4Txldz5po

wokkaboy
20-11-2015, 03:24 PM
hey Tweaky, 1.3mm sounds about right, go the thicker inlay is less likely to crack or shatter when you cut/shape it

DB or Gavmiester should confirm that once they see your question

Tweaky
20-11-2015, 03:25 PM
Worth investing in a scroll saw?

Well I might as well come out and say that I have friends at Sydneys Fish Market, so getting Greenlip Abalone shell won't be a problem [you find plenty washed up on the beaches anyway] ....same for Turbun shell....it's everywhere here....you could cut your feet with it if trodden on.

I have friends in Catering that can supply Mussel shells, they would only be throwing them out.

wokkaboy
20-11-2015, 03:30 PM
Hi Tweaky scroll saws have so many uses so I would say yes. They are great for cutting delicate/thin material and can get nice accurate curves with them. I use one to cut control plates and pickguards - very handy machine to have.
I'd say some of the inlays you would need to use a jewelers saw

Gavin1393
20-11-2015, 03:33 PM
Hi Tweaky, 1.3mm is thicker than you need to go. I use 1.1mm on all mine and it works great. Would not go thinner than .9mm though.

Scroll saw for cutting shell....yes, but you would need to get a very good one. The cheaper ones are plain dangerous. you must use a very thin blade exactly the same as the ones you would use with a Jewellers saw. For this reason you would want you scroll saw to use bladed that have no lugs to hold it in place, it would instead have a clamping screw that achieves this.

Cutting my MOP logo would take around 15-20 minutes with a jewellers saw. Only takes 4-5 minutes with the scroll saw. But you have to determine how much inlay work you expect to do to justify the $700-$800 that a good one will cost.

wokkaboy
20-11-2015, 03:36 PM
cheers Gav for clearing that up. Good advice.
Only 9 posts to hit the 3000 posts Gav !

Tweaky
20-11-2015, 03:49 PM
Hi Tweaky, 1.3mm is thicker than you need to go. I use 1.1mm on all mine and it works great. Would not go thinner than .9mm though.

Scroll saw for cutting shell....yes, but you would need to get a very good one. The cheaper ones are plain dangerous. you must use a very thin blade exactly the same as the ones you would use with a Jewellers saw. For this reason you would want you scroll saw to use bladed that have no lugs to hold it in place, it would instead have a clamping screw that achieves this.

Cutting my MOP logo would take around 15-20 minutes with a jewellers saw. Only takes 4-5 minutes with the scroll saw. But you have to determine how much inlay work you expect to do to justify the $700-$800 that a good one will cost.

Thanks for the erudite reply.
Could you please give me a link to a scroll saw of the type you recommend ?
I work in a environment full of Jewellers / Bespoke Tailors - Cobblers / Fashion houses...it wouldn't be hard for me to request one of the Jewellers to purchase a scroll saw at industry prices on my behalf....I just need to know which sort [recommended - not THAT expensive] to get.

OT: Somebody in a house nearby is Frying Onions....it smells wonderful...very hard to stay focussed while typing this.:o

Gavin1393
20-11-2015, 04:14 PM
I have an Excalibur (General International) . There is a great review here on it that shows how great it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxz3b_LHlkY

stan
20-11-2015, 05:01 PM
jumping in late, and not sure if it has been mentioned - use proper breathing protection when cutting up mop, shells etc, the dust is more than bad for you, Dr Google it...

Gavin1393
20-11-2015, 05:23 PM
Stan you are correct, but breathing particals of any sort long term is bad for you and your advice to use breathing protection is spot on......you just have to figure out how to stop the lens from fogging up! :)

Gavin1393
20-11-2015, 05:24 PM
cheers Gav for clearing that up. Good advice.
Only 9 posts to hit the 3000 posts Gav !
Only six more posts now to the big 3000! Woo hoo!

Tweaky
21-11-2015, 03:58 PM
I have an Excalibur (General International) . There is a great review here on it that shows how great it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxz3b_LHlkY

Just looking at the spec;s....It might be one of the best, and I could probably see it as such.

Biggest Problem is, it would take up too much space.....and I doubt the several thousand $ expended would be justified ....So I'll opt for getting a hand scroll saw.....let the result be with the Gods.

Gavin1393
21-11-2015, 04:20 PM
Biggest Problem is, it would take up too much space.....and I doubt the several thousand $ expended would be justified ....

One for $845 in Vic...

http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/CTEX-30CEC-General-30-Scroll-Saw-/189583/

dingobass
21-11-2015, 06:25 PM
Stan is right about dust, but shell dust is quite inert and non toxic as such.. Its only calcium afterall..
I just use a simple paper dust mask if I cant be bothered to set up the dust extractor.
Been cutting shell for years and I am still alive :)

jarrod
21-11-2015, 07:56 PM
Only just though lol.....

Tweaky
26-11-2015, 02:27 PM
One for $845 in Vic...

http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/CTEX-30CEC-General-30-Scroll-Saw-/189583/

So tempting...I'd need to ask the owner on shipping cost to Sydney.

I have already ordered a Jewellers saw and heaps of blades, plus some different Shell from the link given in this thread earlier.
I also went to Hobbyco today and bought 2 relatively small sheets of Brass, and one of Copper.

Since I have a dremel already, I intend to use it to test possible engraving, then further chemical treatment of those engraved pieces.
Since figured Maple veneer has been problematic in sourcing at a reasonable cost for it's intended purpose [ Testing various Stains and finishes] while at Hobbyco I also bought 2 X 1m sheets of Basswood around 3mm thick....It will have to suffice for the testing.

A few years back I bought a book by Robert Hughes and Michael Rowe, titled - the Colouring, Bronzing , and Patination of Metals.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Colouring-Bronzing-Patination-Metals/dp/0823007626

It's amazing the various effects that can be easily done on both Brass and Copper if you know what to use, and the technique used, which this book gives the largest, and most comprehensive recipes available....with pictures of the effect. :D

It's a LOT cheaper now than when I bought it [I think I paid around AUS $160 for it ] there must have been a reprint...recommended reading if you are thinking of Metal inlay anyway.

Tweaky
11-12-2015, 03:50 PM
OK, I received my assorted shell pieces from the Australian MOP supplies [Both White & Gold MOP, Green lipped and RED Abalone ]
A few questions.

Firstly, the shell you get from these people is not polished to a finished state.
What would be the first grade of sandpaper you would use to start polishing ?

Reason I ask is that I have bought a full set of Micro Mesh polishing papers [1500/1800/2400/3200/3600/4000/6000/8000/12000 ] and I tried this sanding regime on one of each type of shell, the white MOP came out fine, all the others have what I would call Radial striations , which I'm not sure are features of the shell itself [therefore they will not be able to be removed] or, if they are circular saw marks from cutting the pieces [ so they could possibly be polished out if I started at a lower cut of sandpaper ]

Apart from these radial marks, the shell comes to a mirror finish very quickly with a brief rub of each grade of sanding :D

My other question is to those that have the most practical experience, would you cut first and polish second, or visa versa?

dingobass
12-12-2015, 08:39 AM
Start your polishing with 800 wet and dry then work your way up to 2500 W/D.
Then break out the micro pads :)
Personally, I choose the best face then sand the other face flat on 240 grit sandpaper.
Then I cut shape, clean the edges then install.
Next up flatten off and begin to polish :p

Tweaky
13-12-2015, 11:49 AM
I tried your recommended starting grade sanding.
Depending of Shell type, it worked well starting at 600-800....some still showed circler saw cuts, at 1200 grit, so I went back to a lower grit.
I'm now thinking 220 for RED abalone is the needed base sanding grit....320 for Green lipped Abalone...at least as it is supplied buy the MOP company.

White MOP only needs a 400 starting grit point if that,.....GOLD MOP on the other hand, because of the way it is cut, needs a Coarser starting grade [220 ], unless you get it right at the lower grits, especially with Gold MOP, it's a waste of time....as you will have portions of the shell unpolished with cavities/holes.
From the short time I've been doing this, look at each individual shell piece under a magnifying glass, look for pits in the shell....you won't be able to level these, so consider these pieces [or portions of the shell] pretty much useless.

I've been trying all combos, with the different shells and sanding regimes.

A regime of 15 grades of sanding seems the give the best result.

Only problem is my Fingers Bleeding ....possible Technique change needed :(
Any tips?
I've been using Sanding block/sanding paper ...then using finger pressure trying to sand the shell downwards against it ] I have rubbed certain points of 3 of my fingers, plus the thumb bare to point of bleeding