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Arzi
18-08-2015, 02:30 PM
Hi

Just ordered the MMB-4 kit to build during the winter and I'm thinking about maybe turning it to active with a 2-band preamp. Since I have no previous experience on the subject I'm hoping for honest opinions and also help on the wiring and choosing pots.As always I'm gonna keep this as budget as possible at this point and was gonna try a chinese cheap onboard preamp circuit. I can always change the bits later if I keep lacking something. I know I have to do some routing etc to fit these.

1. Can I gain anything by installing a preamp? At least MM has them onboard...

2. Is the stock pickup ok to use with a preamp? Anything I need to know about Ohms etc?

3. Any wiring diagrams to use with a 2-band and stock pickup?

4. If I wanna use this as passive for a change - can I achieve this somehow with a push-pull pot and does it "turn off" the preamp so that it would not consume the battery when I don't play?

5. Anything else that pops in mind that I would need to know - please enlighten me.

Thanks

Arzi

wokkaboy
18-08-2015, 02:45 PM
Arzi better wait for the resident wiring guru Weirdbits to answer your questions some curly ones there !
You don't muck around with your next build !
I installed a pre-amp in an IB-6S build and it sounds fantastic, even with the stock pups, the range of sounds you get with the active system far outweighs the passive system.
Usually if you leave the lead unplugged when not playing it the battery shouldn't drain.
There may be a way to turn it off but once you have played the active system you won't want to turn it off.
You will probably have to enlarge the control cavity at least for the battery and depending how high the cards are on the system may need to go deeper. Think the MMB-4 has a front pickguard so you will have to think about a rear battery compartment I'd say

Arzi
18-08-2015, 03:28 PM
Hi Woks

Thanks for the opinions. Yep I know there is some hole digging to be expected and the battery compartment will go on the back.I don't have a router so I have to do things the hard way but I'm quite confident I can pull it off. There's no hurry. Depending on how big the circuit is I have to think thru how I'm gonna do the cavities. How about the control plate - it has three holes and the circuit comes with four pots... I guess one of these is some kind of blend or something? Anyway - will wait for Weirdbits to step in on this one.

And yes - could not wait. This is an itch you can't scratch... Takes a few weeks though cause I wanted a maple fretboard on mine.

Arzi

wokkaboy
18-08-2015, 03:45 PM
Hey Arzi,
I see there isn't much space for a 4th pot on the control panel.
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/MMB-4-new-main.jpg
but you can get a concentric stacked knob I had to for my IB-6S.
Yes one of the controls was a blend pot.
I'd post a link of the pre-amp you are thinking of ordering and Weirdy should be able to knock up a wiring diagram

WeirdBits
18-08-2015, 04:32 PM
You could probably side-mount the jack to give you 4 pot mounts on the control plate, or just go with a concentric pot (if possible). A lot of your options will depend on the preamp you want to use and its requirements, so we'll need to get a look at it, but there should ways of achieving what you want. Lawry is the expert in this area.

Arzi
18-08-2015, 04:39 PM
Hi Weirdbits and wokka

I'll post a pic when I get the chance. At this point I'm all open for suggestions so that I can get my plans ready before I get the kit. Nd when I see it - some changes are still gonna take place as usual... Thanks for these and will be back.

Arzi

wokkaboy
18-08-2015, 04:47 PM
Arzi think my pre-amp was a SBK-3 was about $50 AUS posted. Probably worth spending a few more bucks now in case a cheap chinese pre-amp bombs out
http://www.guitarfuel.com/SBK-3_SBK-3A_SBK-3AD.php

Arzi
18-08-2015, 04:57 PM
That's true Woks. The chinese one is about 10 Aus posted so can't expect much... ;) anyway - small price to pay for avoiding a headache.

dingobass
18-08-2015, 05:02 PM
There is a lot to be said about pre amping passive Bass pups.
Especially if you are looking at recording as it beefs up the signal and gets rid of a lot of the unwanted background "white" noise associated with passive Bass pups.
Well worth it :)

Arzi
18-08-2015, 06:39 PM
Hi

This is the cheap chinese kit if it helps in some way.

" 1 Volume + 3 Tone pots with balance volume
Balance volume for pickup
Volume:Master
Bass:+/-12dB at 85Hz
Treble:+/-12dB at 7KHz

Package included:
1 x 2 Band Active EQ Preamp Circuit for Bass Pickup "

4689

4690

Arzi
18-08-2015, 06:40 PM
And it was 13 AUS not 10.... :)

dingobass
18-08-2015, 07:01 PM
Worth a shot for that price..
If it works how you want it to, then you can upgrade it to a more pro set up :)

Arzi
18-08-2015, 07:22 PM
Hi

I think I'll order two of those. If broken, I'll have a spare and if it works - I have three basses to put the other one into...

I must be a gear junkie - I just started playing less than a year ago and have two built... :)

dingobass
18-08-2015, 07:55 PM
Sounds like a case of BAS....
Dont worry, I have 8 or 10 in my personal collection...... :p

WeirdBits
18-08-2015, 07:58 PM
If you want a switchable active/passive setup the pot values will probably be the biggest issue. Active systems typically use much smaller values than passives, so you either need separate controls or stacked controls that you can switch between (depending on the values your preamp uses). Given the work already required to fit an active system it may more practical to keep it as active only, unless you have your heart set on a dual system.

Arzi
18-08-2015, 08:18 PM
Hi Weirdbits

I think you're right - no need to make this job more challenging than it already is. I have all kinds of mods I need to work out planned for this one already so if I can put a prewired system in it I'm very pleased.

Just have to work out the four pots - three holes issue... If I have one pickup - do I need the fourth or can I just "dump" it somehow? Aren't bass, treble and volume enough or might the pickuo be dual coils - seperate controls kind of thing? I mean some kind of split possible / needed? What kind of wiring does the pickup have? I know I'll find out soon enough but it might take 8 weeks still to arrive.

Arzi

Brendan
18-08-2015, 08:42 PM
Arzi - another option - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TONE-MONSTER-SEB2-A-Preamp-Guitar-J-P-Bass-Balance-Volume-Treble-Bass-12dB-/181820202752?hash=item2a55541f00 - I think this is the same brand Wokka used for his IB-6S, but it only has three knobs. Bit more expensive, but... As for the pickup - from memory it's a dual coil, but they are not split. An option would also be crank the tone of (for example) the treble right up and then see if you can hide it under the pickguard somehow. Another option would be to move the jack to the bottom of the guitar - you'd need a jack plate, but they're ebayable for next to nix. That way you could use the jack hole for pot #4 and all would be sweet. The cavity is pretty close to the bottom of the guitar - may not be MM style, but....

Switching between passive and active - easiest way I could think would be a second control plate - wire everything apart from the pup up and then use some connectors to allow yourself to switch out the control plate (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Chrome-Electric-Bass-Switch-Control-plate-for-Musicman-Stingray-Guitar-New-/330625233880?hash=item4cfaccb3d8).

Gavin1393
18-08-2015, 09:49 PM
Sounds like a case of BAS....
Dont worry, I have 8 or 10 in my personal collection...... :p

Would have been 10 but the one's that look like Tele's are still missing?

Arzi
18-08-2015, 10:05 PM
Hi Brendan

Found this also:

https://m.thomann.de/fi/artec_se2a.htm?ref=mpd_aa_1:

A bit over 30 AUS from Germany plus postage in a week and 3 pots. Might as well order something else with it with the 15AUS postage fee. Might be better quality and with a warranty. Leaning towards this one now...

Arzi
18-08-2015, 10:25 PM
Although with the Artec it would seem I'd have to find some use for one extra hole... It only seems to need two holes with one pickup.

Seems awfully lot like Tone Monster... Actually looks like exactly the same product as one of Tone Monsters set...

stan
19-08-2015, 04:53 PM
awesome project Arzi, all the best with it.

Arzi
21-08-2015, 06:47 PM
Hi

Ok guys - now you got me thinking... If I don't have to use the blend pot - it would be a shame. I can't just stick a flower or something in the empty hole on the control board. So... it seems I have to dig a hole for another humbucker on this one... Let it be a dual Hummie then. Can't be that difficult or?.. Let's see what I can do with just a drill, Dremel and a chisle...

Thanks a lot... Well it's my fault for asking in the first place...

Arzi

WeirdBits
21-08-2015, 07:16 PM
If the preamp has a blend/balance pot and your single pickup is a 4 wire humbucker then you should be able to wire each coil to the balance pot. That way you can have humbucker or either single coil or part thereof as you want.

Arzi
21-08-2015, 09:31 PM
Ok. Thanks Weirdbits - have to think this thru again... Maybe it's best to wait for the kit and then decide.

keloooe
22-08-2015, 08:51 AM
I think it does have the 4 wires, looking at the diagrams on the site...

Arzi
22-08-2015, 11:54 AM
So it seems the coil is split. Didn't look at the diagrams until now (dummy...)

If I wanted to use two similar humbuckers I'd have like 10 wires total (with bares) coming from pups alone. Don't know what I'd achieve with two soundwise - would look more well equipped at least. Plus could not split the coils but would have to use the blend to seperate the two pups. The coils would be all active one pup as a whole. Other pups would look kind of silly on a MM type bass.

keloooe
22-08-2015, 02:59 PM
Arzi if you are going for the SBK-2 pre, there is also the 2A version where the treble / bass are mixed into a concentric pot found here http://www.ebay.com/itm/TONE-MONSTER-SBK-2A-Guitar-Bass-Preamp-2B-EQ-Balance-Volume-Treble-Bass-12dB-/181837532619

Arzi
22-08-2015, 05:37 PM
Hi Keloooe

I was thinking about what you suggested. Just manufacturer would be Artec - same assembly with concentric pot for bass/treble plus volume and blend. Comes a bit cheaper than Tone Monster with some other stuff I have to order for new rehearsal garage of ours. Including PA-systems (argh...). Posted a link for Artec earlier in this thread. But yeah - gonna go for that alternative.

keloooe
22-08-2015, 06:46 PM
Nice stuff mate, I'm deciding between the both as well for my Jazz bass....

Arzi
28-08-2015, 07:43 AM
Hi

Since I have now ordered the Artec SE-2A for my build and got a bit greedy - I now want to have to humbuckers in it. Now I have another dilemma...

If I were to use just one pickup I could use the blend pot to switch between coils but now that I want two it's between two full humbuckers - am I right?

So if i want to have more tone options I'd have to put for example a 5-way switch in between the two to do it. This will complicate the wiring of course but will it work with the Artec by just adding the switch in between or do I need to make other mods? Or is there something that prevents this kind of plan? Place of the switch is a challenge with the MMB-4 since there's not much extra space under the pickguard but I could try to fit it there the same time I make room for the other pickup - maybe lower part of it.

Anyway - these mods just keep on piling up even though this was supposed to stay fairly simple...:)

WeirdBits
28-08-2015, 01:55 PM
With two pickups, the SE-2A's balance pot will allow you to control how much of each pickup you hear (all bridge or all neck or a mix of both). And, you're correct, you will need a separate control if you also want to select individual coils from each pickup (assuming they are splittable, 3 or 4 wire pups) . A 5-way switch could work, but would probably make things harder than necessary.

Instead, an On/On/On mini-switch for each pickup would allow you to select one coil/both/other coil etc for a switchable option. Or, one extra concentric pot would allow you to control the single coil/humbucker blend for either pickup, or one dual-ganged pot could control the single/humbucker mix for both pups at the same time. The mini-switches would probably give the most versatility and keep with the 'fairly simple' theme.

Arzi
28-08-2015, 02:22 PM
Hi Scott

Huge thanks to you and if I understood correctly:

I could use the Artec as it is by putting two on/on/on mini switches between the pickups and blend pot? This way I could choose to use both coils seperately or together (3way switch for each pup) and drive these to blend pot for even more versatility.

Does the active system cause any concernes regarding resistance or something to consider?

With two mini switches this setup would seem to have

- 2 band EQ
- Blend option
- 9 way split options

Pretty good tone options with fairly simple mods (not the routing though...) easier to route space for miniswitches cause the pickguard ain't that big. Could continue the channels below the pickuos or center them a bit. Have to plan that after I get the kit.

If it just arrived sooner than later...

WeirdBits
28-08-2015, 03:50 PM
Yep, whatever is selected for each pickup (single coil/humbucker) would then go through the preamp's balance control.

I think from memory the MM humbuckers usually have their coils connected in parallel, whereas guitar humbucker coils are typically wired in series. So, you could use mini-switches to select one coil/the other/both or, for something different, have them wired as single coil/series/parallel etc. It just depends on what you want.

Also, you should be able to fit the mini-switches in between the three knobs on the control plate, which should mean no routing required at all. It'll depend on how much space is required for the preamp's board.

Arzi
28-08-2015, 06:06 PM
Wow

This is beginning to sound better and better... :)

The pups are 4 wires plus shielding so it should work. If I get three full humbuckin (neck, both and bridge) and three single combos that should give almost limitless sound variations combined with other controls. Might be too much for a beginner like me at the moment but have to think ahead. I'll have to draw some kind of wiring diagram for my self and I'll put it here once I get the time for it. You could then take a look at it and see if it's anywhere near the truth. I'll have to seek out those miniswitches and order them. So far the mods without switches are 35€ = about 45-50 AUS$ so relatively affordable considering the options they provide.

The preamp's board should be quite compact but that remains to be seen when it arrives.

WeirdBits
28-08-2015, 10:50 PM
These are just done quickly using Seymour Duncan colours: Black (hot), white, red, green (ground), grey (bare shield). Black and white are one coil, red and green the other. Not sure what your colours will be.

The top layout is for Parallel/Single coil/Series, bottom layout is Coil 1/Both coils (parallel)/Coil 2, using On/On/On DPDT mini-switches. Depending on your pickups (and the preamp), the series option may just be too overwhelming and muddy, or it could be a deliciously heavy tone... but, that's something for you to work out. You could wire one pickup each way and see which you like best etc.
4866
The pickup wire colours are paired as:
Coil 1: Red +, Green -
Coil 2: Black +, White -

The blue 'Balance Pot' wires are the output for each pickup and would connect to the Front and Rear terminals on the SE-2A's balance pot.
4867

Hope that helps.

Arzi
29-08-2015, 01:07 AM
Again - wow...

I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate the help you've given me... I already found the dpdt 3x on switches from ebay and will order those. Since they are 5 pcs for about 11AUS$ I have some spares if some are broke. I don't think dimarzio's are worth the price of 20Aus$ a piece...

Will keep you posted :)

Arzi
05-10-2015, 02:23 PM
Hi guys

As I've now taken a look on how to solder the wires - i found that my output jack only has two tips - hot and ground. As the diagram's jack has three.

My question is - the concentric pot's "sw" - spot - where do I connect it to on the jack? Tip or ground?

Thanks in advance! :)

wokkaboy
05-10-2015, 02:25 PM
Hi Arzi,
can you please post a photo of the pot and jack. It might make it easier to understand your question

Arzi
05-10-2015, 02:42 PM
Hi Woks

The jack is a basic mono jack with tip and sleeve ( + and -) and the pot is shown exactly as the diagram weirdbits posted above. There are three connections on the diagram going from the jack to the pot - ground, out and sw. I aasume ground goes to sleeve, out goes to tip but the sw confuses me. For what I understand it looks like another tip connection but I have to confirm this. Didn't find any info googling it.

wokkaboy
05-10-2015, 02:51 PM
Hi Arzi,
might need Weirdy to clear it up but I'd say you are on the right track. Ground to sleeve and out to tip should be correct.

Maddogm
05-10-2015, 03:07 PM
some of the active setups use a stereo plug and use the 3rd wire as a power option so that's a possibility (without looking in depth at it)

Arzi
05-10-2015, 03:14 PM
Hi Maddogm

This is one option I was also thinking of. Have to buy one if this is the case. The preamp did not come with a jack so this was a disappointment...

If I used a mono jack with some kind of wiring - could this result in a circuit that would keep the preamp active all the time? Meaning consuming the battery dry even with the cable not plugged in? That would be a bummer....

WeirdBits
05-10-2015, 04:07 PM
Yep, it's designed to use a stereo jack to act as the power switching for the preamp. Inserting a standard mono plug into the stereo jack bridges the ground and SW via the plug's sleeve, which completes the power circuit turning on the preamp.

If you really wanted to you could use another toggle switch or push/pull pot to act as your power switch, but a stereo jack is the easiest and more standard way of doing it.

Arzi
05-10-2015, 04:13 PM
Thanks Scott. Will order one and go on from there. :)

Arzi
27-10-2015, 07:13 PM
Help needed!

I connected everything according to the diagrams here. No sound on the tap test.

The wires on the pickups as they came were:

Bare and green soldered together

Red and white soldered together

Black single

These would indicate that the black is hot, bare and green are ground and white and red are -. Just like the SD pups.

No luck getting any sound. Since I want to coil tap, I soldered the wires exactly like in the photo by Weirdbits.

What to do next? I have the battery in place if anyone wonders.

wokkaboy
27-10-2015, 07:30 PM
Arzi maybe check the output Jack connections. Might pay to post some close up pics and wait for Weirdy to chime in. Did you end up using a stereo jack?

Arzi
27-10-2015, 08:13 PM
Used a stereo jack. Changed the battery now and I get tap from front coils only. No humbucker or rear coils. This happens also when I switch to rear coils - the front ones give a tap.

WeirdBits
27-10-2015, 08:20 PM
Post some pics of your toggle switches as that wiring is likely the issue if you're only getting one coil on each pup.

Did you use the upper 'Parallel/Single coil/Series' layout or the lower 'Coil 1/Parallel/Coil 2'?

Arzi
27-10-2015, 08:37 PM
The latter. Front, parallel,rear

WeirdBits
27-10-2015, 08:48 PM
Did you separate the red and white wires?

Arzi
27-10-2015, 09:34 PM
Yes I did. Tried to switch them too but no luck. Seemed to switch to rear coil when doing that. When the two are joined it gets the humbucking mode.

WeirdBits
27-10-2015, 09:46 PM
It sounds like both coils are working, depending on how they are connected, but not working as/when expected. When you can, please post a photo of your toggle switch wiring so we can try to work out what's happening.

Arzi
28-10-2015, 07:04 AM
Hi

I got it sorted out. For some reason I was fixed on the wire colors until I got out my Ohm meter and checked whitch ones were a pair. Found that red and black + green and white were pairs, switched the locations and everything worked! :)

Tomorrow I get to put on the strings. Home strech...

wokkaboy
28-10-2015, 09:49 AM
well done Arzi, coil tapping and correct wire colours can take a bit to work out

WeirdBits
28-10-2015, 01:32 PM
Glad you got it sorted out, I wish they'd all stick to a standard colour layout and pairing scheme.

I'd still suggest trying one of the pups with the toggle switch wired as series/single/parallel and see which option you like best. The pickups were already wired as series so it may be that configuration will produce the better sound.

Arzi
28-10-2015, 02:52 PM
Hi Scott

I might try that. As soon as I get it playing. I've got two pups in stead of one and the preamp so it might give me more growl - espesially with the neck pup. Will tell after I've tried it. Huge thanks to you for helping me out with this. :)

Swanny
28-10-2015, 08:03 PM
Good job on figuring it out with a meter!
I have a set of Guitar Fetish pickups to put in my kit when it arrives, I should check the wiring diagrams it came with against the multimeter... just to be sure!

Crusader
14-03-2016, 07:29 AM
Oh great sage's of the forum,
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I also wish to do a similar setup.
But, I would like to use a 5 way switch so with 2 x 2 coil pickups what would be the most popular selections

1. both coils neck
2. both coils Bridge
3. one coil from each
4. the other coils from each
5. ?????

etc.

Also, could I just replace the Balance pot for the 5 way, I have emailed Artec I have not yet received a reply.

any advice would be gratefully accepted.

Cheers
Crusader.

Fretworn
14-03-2016, 10:19 AM
I wonder whether having the coils in series/parallel might be a better option than splitting to single coils. I would think you would want to have each humbucker separately and together. If wanted to have the coils split you would probably just want the outer coils, don't worry about trying to get the inner coils as well.

WeirdBits
14-03-2016, 02:21 PM
Neil, is this for an MMB-4 kit? It will depend on the pickups you're using and how they are wired (series or parallel coils, 2 or 4 wire etc), and your overall goal.

Keeping the balance pot will give you a lot more flexibility, but there are ways to wire it so it has no effect in certain positions. Depending on the pickup wiring you will probably need a switch with individual (not shared) lugs, so either a Tele 4-way or Oak Grigsby 2/4 pole 5-way. But again, it comes down to what you want it to do... if you can explain that then we can work out the best way to achieve it.

Crusader
14-03-2016, 04:51 PM
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies.
I was browsing through some bases and saw the stingray 5, and decided that the MMB-4 would be the kit I would build.
I had been trying to decide for a while which one to build. Woka set me on the Arzi path and so what I am trying to do is.

The Plan,
2 Seymour Duncan Pickups 4 string 1 Alnico Bridge and one ceramic Neck,
MOP Nut supplied by DB,
Artec SE3 preamp
5 way CRL switch from PBG (I just didn't like the balance concept.)

I found this since the last post

9468

it appears to show what I was looking for the coil configurations for each switch position.
I am hoping this shouldn't be hard to wire up, I am just not sure about the replacing the Balance pot.

Cheers,
Neil

WeirdBits
15-03-2016, 01:07 PM
You won't be able to do the above with a standard CRL 5-way, it'll need to be a 4-pole 5-way like the super switch (http://www.realparts.com.au/electronics/lever-switches/mega-super-switch-5-way-double-wafer.html).

As an alternative you could use two mini-toggle switches to control the coil selection on each pickup (both coils, coil 1, coil 2) and then use a standard 3 or 4-way lever switch for the combinations, more options but more switches and messing around.

Crusader
15-03-2016, 01:24 PM
Hi WeirdBits, thanks for the advice, I'll have a think about it for a while...

Arzi
28-03-2016, 10:52 PM
Hi Neil

If I'd do my build again, I'd probably go with a 4-way switch like I did my last build the "Hemi" or "Ol dirty basstard". I did it with a 4-way Grigsby and one humbucker + single coil. Neck, series, parallel and bridge. This is an easy way to do it.

With a preamp you can't use the blend seamlessly with it. What I can tell now the series option boosts the pickups tremendously with the passive option so you get way louder pups if you skip the parallel option. Then again with the preamp you get same kind of effect although the basic sound of the pickups are different in parallel.

For what it's worth I like the sound of chinese pups on mine very much. Paid about 13 AUD each so for the price they rock. And Weirdbits is the voice you should listen on these things. I'll keep an eye on this build. Have fun. :) The Artec is well worth the money.