More holes than I can handle

[ihasmario]

Hey guys,

I'm in the middle of planning my circuit for my SC1. It's using two, four-wire humbuckers.

Option 1;
4 Push pulls to turn each coil on/off
1 vol and 1 tone per humbucker
Kill switch
Empty hole for I don't know what (phase/series/parallel?, master tone, built in overdirve/distoriton)

Option 2;
4 push pulls for vol/tone on each coil
Kill switch
Phase/series/parallel

Option 3;
???

Any inspiration?

[wokkaboy]

Hey Chris, how many holes you got for electrics again on the cap ? 4 pot holes and a switch ?
Forgotten if there is an output jack hole on the cap and you have side mounted that.
You only need 2 push pull pots, one each to split the coils of the humbuckers.
Really only need one master tone so the other pot hole could be a kill switch.
Don't think you need to use that monster rotary switch if you have the push pull pots to split the buckers.
I'm always a fan of keeping the electrics simple as possible in a semi hollow body !

[Nickosaurus]

If you're game option 2 sounds the best to me. I absolutely LOVE having a series/parallel switch on my tele's pups. Acts like a mini boost for solos.

[keloooe]

Maybe even invest in a concentric pot and have a single pot for master volume AND tone!

[WeirdBits]

You've edge mounted the output jack, right? So, you have the large pickup selector hole and now 4 + 1 pot holes?

You could use push/pull volume and tone pairs for each pickup which would allow you to have series/parallel/outer coil/inner coil switching. That would give you a lot of variation. Or, if you wanted to keep it a little more simple, you should be able to switch both pickups with just one of the volume/tone pairs as push/pulls (standard pots for the other pair). That is, it would switch both pickups from series to parallel to outer coils to inner coils at the same time. For the remaining hole, if you can get a 3-pos switch with enough poles (have to work out how many), you could have parallel (standard)/series switching between the pickups for when they are both on and the 3rd position could be the kill (all off). Or, alternately, the switch could be in/out phase and kill or something like that.

Or, volume pot and series/single coil/parallel mini-switch for each pickup and then a master tone. Simple, but still a lot of options.

You could even maybe do a varitone type setup or something similar, but rotary switches won't always fit through an f-hole so that may not be possible.

What do your pickups sound like when coil split or in parallel? It may pay to research and see if you can get some sound samples, as it may not be worth having all the switching options if they are not going to provide the type of sound you're looking for.

[keloooe]

And as always, Weirdy comes to the rescue :D

[ihasmario]

You've edge mounted the output jack, right? So, you have the large pickup selector hole and now 4 + 1 pot holes?

Correct.


You could use push/pull volume and tone pairs for each pickup which would allow you to have series/parallel/outer coil/inner coil switching. That would give you a lot of variation.

How do I get series/parallel/outer/inner onto the four push pulls? I can only think of how to do outer/inner with four push pulls if I'm doing it on both pups. Or are you saying do outer/inner on the push pulls and series/parallel on a rotary? The latter I can definitely draw up myself, but I don't know how to do the first one.


What do your pickups sound like when coil split or in parallel? It may pay to research and see if you can get some sound samples, as it may not be worth having all the switching options if they are not going to provide the type of sound you're looking for.

When my tuners get here, the first thing I'm doing is running them straight to out so I can have a little noodle on the guitar and check it out (never had a good play on a hollow body except a brief noodle at wok's house). I can work that out from there - not too many clean tone demos of these out there, but the ones that are out there are sweet as.

That said, using pups from the same company on my last build - I found that series, parallel and front/back in the bridge didn't have much difference into most setups (maybe because of loading/not having a buffer).

[dingobass]

Install a flux capacitor control :)

[wokkaboy]

Install a flux capacitor control :)

haha well said DB, its the only way the Delorian will time travel !

[WeirdBits]

...How do I get series/parallel/outer/inner onto the four push pulls? ...

I'll draw something up later tonight if I get time.

[dingobass]

Good ole Weirdy to the rescue again! :)

[WeirdBits]

I've drawn up a couple of diagrams… but, the tricky thing is it depends on how your pickups are wired (internally). Some manufacturers match colours to pickup poles, others match them to inner/outer coils. For example, with some pickups the black 'hot' represents the 'start' of the inner coil for both bridge and neck, but they have opposing poles so they can be linked in a hum cancelling pair. With other manufacturers the black may always be the north 'start' and the green always the south 'start', so you have to match opposing colours when you are linking split bridge and neck coils. As such, without knowing your particular pickup's configuration I've drawn the diagrams like so:

Blue: inner start (hot)
Yellow: inner end (series link)
Red: outer end (series link)
Green: outer start (ground)

Therefore, you'll need to work out which pairs of wires on your pickups are for the inner and outer coils etc. so that you can link them in inner/outer hum-cancelling pairs. Make sense?

Diagram 1:
Push/Pull pairs for volume and tone for each pickup, allowing individual series/parallel/outer coil/inner coil switching. Plus, a separate switch giving In Phase/Out of Phase between the pickups and a kill (mute) position.
3529

BV = Bridge Volume, BT = Bridge Tone, NV = Neck Volume, NT = Neck Tone, up = Push/Pull up, down = Push/Pull down

BV down, BT down: Bridge series humbucker (standard)
BV up, BT down: Bridge outer coil
BV down, BT up: Bridge inner coil
BV up, BT up: Bridge parallel humbucker

NV down, NT down: Neck series humbucker (standard)
NV up, NT down: Neck outer coil
NV down, NT up: Neck inner coil
NV up, NT up: Neck parallel humbucker

The phase switch changes the phase of the bridge pickup only, so you'll only notice it when combined with the neck pickup in the pickup selector middle position. In the 'kill' position on the phase switch it just shorts the jack's hot to ground to mute the guitar. They're a little pricey, but a double-neck style On/On/On 4-pole toggle switch (http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/SWT36-17/3-Way-4-Pole-Guitar-Toggle-Switch-Chrome.html) would work nicely for the phase/kill and should fit perfectly in that larger 5th hole (rather than trying to fit a mini-switch). But, the phase switch is just an idea, you could do cap switching or a rotary switch or whatever.


Diagram 2:
Similar to above, but only one pair of push/pulls (neck volume and tone) that switch between series/parallel/outer coil/inner coil for both pickups together. Standard pots for the bridge volume and tone. The 3-way toggle switch still controls which pickup(s) are selected, but the push/pull settings control how both pickups are configured. Again, there's a separate switch giving In Phase/Out of Phase between the pickups and a kill (mute) position.
3530

NV = Neck Volume, NT = Neck Tone, up = Push/Pull up, down = Push/Pull down
(Push/Pull setting affects both pickups)

NV down, NT down: Series humbuckers (standard)
NV up, NT down: Outer coils
NV down, NT up: Inner coils
NV up, NT up: Parallel humbuckers

If you'd rather have a series/parallel setting between the pickups instead of a phase switch it's easy enough to do, but there are some caveats to how it can be used. Let me know if you're interested in that option.


Anyway, that should give you some ideas for using push/pulls for series/parallel/splitting.

[dingobass]

Wow... Thats awesome, Weirdy!

[ihasmario]

Hey WeirdBits, great diagrams. I see how you're doing it now with the push/pulls. Very inventive.

What's the best way to check the wires? Hook them up to a multimeter and tap the coil with a screwdriver?

Is there any alternative to the 4p3t on/on/on? For example, can I use a 3 pos 4 pole rotary instead or is there a problem getting them into hollow bodies up the top?

Otherwise is a Switchcraft Right Angle 'Double Neck' Toggle Switch basically the same thing? Is there such a thing as on/on/mom.on?

Thanks.

[wokkaboy]

nice diagrams Weirdy,
do you sleep buddy, you post at some weird times !

[keloooe]

Nice diagrams Weirdy, do you ever sleep as Wokka asked?
Also how have you done these awesome diagrams, I'd like to start doing my own soon and these look really nice!

[Fretworn]

You could always add one of these
http://www.joshuascotton.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/panicbutton-300x299.jpg

[ihasmario]

I think I'd be more willing to drop the kill switch than I would be to have a dedicated slot to it (if I can help it). I can easily add a killswitch elsewhere in the chain.

I'll go ahead and try it out with a rotary first and see if the wiring still works. I had thought about having a giant kill switch in the big hole, but I think your ideas are better.

[WeirdBits]

What's the best way to check the wires?

What brand and model are the pickups? We may be able to get the info without having to test them. Failing that, a multimeter is the best option. This video guide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UfxQBhqen8) explains it pretty well.


Is there any alternative to the 4p3t on/on/on? For example, can I use a 3 pos 4 pole rotary instead... ?

To include the kill switch position I needed to use the 4-pole On/On/On (4P3T) with its specific contact sequence for it to work. If you're willing to drop the kill position and just have the phase switching the you can use any old On/On DPDT switch, much simpler and cheaper.

A double-neck 4-pole right angle switch would probably work, but I'd need to check the contact sequence to be certain (I don't have one here, so I'll have to do some research).

You could use a multi-pole rotary if you want, the problem is it may not fit through the f-hole. For example, with a wafer style rotary switch on the ES-1 kits you have to shave down the wafers and bend its lugs to squeeze it through the f-hole (or disassemble the switch, feed its parts through the hole then reassemble it inside the cavity... but I'm not willing to try that). However, it does look like the Starcaster's f-holes may be slightly larger, so it may work. With a multi-pos multi-pole rotary you could do in/out phase switching and series/parallel switching all on the one switch, but it would be a little clumsy as kill switch in my opinion.

Having said that, the volume pots in the above diagrams are wired in the traditional LP style, so when the pickup selector is in the middle position if you turn either volume to 0 it mutes both pickups... so you have a pseudo kill/mute built in, sort of.


Is there such a thing as on/on/mom.on?

It's possible somewhere like Mouser (http://au.mouser.com/) may have something along those lines, but number of poles and contact sequence would determine if it was a viable option. I suspect it would be more cost and effort than it's worth just for a kill/mute setting.

I suggested the phase switching as I thought that would better suit your taste for clean tones, if I'm remembering your tastes correctly. But, the pickup options alone will give you a wide variety of sounds, so if you particularly want a kill switch then I'd just forget the phase switch and put a dedicated kill switch in there instead. You could even use an old 3-way toggle for that, though not ideal.

[gavinturner]

Awesome diagrams Wierdy!! Some great info buried in there. Now I just need time to digest and reverse engineer. Great work dude.

cheers,
Gav.

[WeirdBits]

you post at some weird times !
Mate, you're in Perth, you're the one with the weird times. Made the diagrams last night, fell asleep, posted this morning.


Also how have you done these awesome diagrams...
Pest, there are much better ways to do them, but I've just been using GIMP (cross platform, free, and I'm used to it). I use separate layers for each component type (pups, caps, pots etc), and separate layers for each wire colour. I take photos of my components as I use them to build up a library and then just paste them in as needed. For example, in the above diagrams I made the first one then just changed the pot layer and some of the wire layers to make the second diagram. The hard part is figuring out the design in the first place... option 1 of the Frakenpester took some head-scratching. Paper, pencil and eraser are still your friends when working up designs.

[wokkaboy]

Mate, you're in Perth, you're the one with the weird times. Made the diagrams last night, fell asleep, posted this morning.
haha its all relative Weirdy, assume you are 2 hours ahead but there was posts 2 something and 3 something our time so your up before 5am is keen.
Keep up the good work bro Pitbulls resident wiring guru. I'm sure all of the forum appreciate all these custom wiring diagrams you knock out

[ihasmario]

Hey Weirdbits,

I'll get rid of the kill/mute then and put it on something I can tap on or use in-line with my other guitars.

If I get rid of the kill/mute, I just have to remove the link between the switch and the hot, the two grounds from the pot and that's it?

Any changes I missed?

[WeirdBits]

To remove the kill setting only, you just have to retain the cross-over phase switching on the inner two poles, like this:

3555

[keloooe]

That diagram gives quite a lot of tonal possibilities...... The demo video for this guitar will be quite long :D

[ihasmario]

I'm using LACE Alumitone HBs.

From what I can see, it looks like the wires aren't what I expected. The wires have conductivity (one with half the resistance), and one of them, which I know is the ground has no conductivity.

So it looks to me like the four wires I have are actually just a two conductor pickup with a coil tap in the middle (but they oddly call it split wiring). I've emailed them for clarity.

The powers that be aren't allowing me the time to get around to wiring/getting the last switches/wires I need etc, so I haven't quite worked out how this will affect the wiring scheme, but I've emailed lace for some clarity on the issue....

[WeirdBits]

Splitable Alumitone wiring (http://www.lacemusic.com/pdf/13.pdf)

Looks like you may have to limit yourself to just humbucker/split options for each pickup (one push/pull for each pup), but we should still be able to include the phase switch... though it could require some experimenting/testing when you start to wire it up.

[ihasmario]

Splitable Alumitone wiring (http://www.lacemusic.com/pdf/13.pdf)

Looks like you may have to limit yourself to just humbucker/split options for each pickup (one push/pull for each pup), but we should still be able to include the phase switch... though it could require some experimenting/testing when you start to wire it up.

Yeah, I think this leaves me with the option to use the two spare push pulls for phase switching per pickup, right? Then I have a spare hole I can just put a kill in. Or I can use the two push pulls for a kill for each pup.

If I don't like it I'll go ahead and get a different set of pickups, I guess.

[WeirdBits]

You only need to reverse the phase on one of the pickups, not the other, so that they're out of phase with each other when combined. So, you will only need one push/pull for the phase switching, and one push/pull each to split the pickups (which leaves you with potentially one spare push/pull).

You could use the extra push/pull to allow you to link the two pickups together in series when combined (rather than the standard parallel) or use it for tone capacitor switching etc. And yes, you still have the extra hole to use for a kill switch, either a small toggle (On/Off or On/Off/Momentary) or a momentary push button.

[ihasmario]

Sounds good.

Do I get parallel by swapping the hot on one of the pickups for either the ground/split?

Can you give me a hand with the wiring scheme for this one because I've never dealt with a pickup wired like this (which I think is automatically series?). If you flick me a paypal address or some banking details I'll reimburse you for your time. It doesn't seem worth it for me to spend hours working out how it works if this is basically the last guitar I plan to build, and I know the order is going to be a pain for this one (I think I need the split wiring before the series/parallel).

Thanks Scott

[WeirdBits]

I'll try to draw something up later, no need for payment.

[wokkaboy]

good work Weirdy the resident PBG wiring guru helps out once again

[WeirdBits]

I think this should do it:

3987

I've never used this type of pickup, so my layout is based on the info in that Lace diagram link I posted yesterday. All the settings should work as intended (I think), but I don't know how they'll sound with that particular pickup.

The two volume push/pulls split their respective pickup (down = humbucker, up = split). The bridge tone push/pull controls the phase of the bridge pickup (down = in phase, up = out of phase). The neck tone push/pull selects between parallel/series when the pickups are combined together (down = parallel, up = series). NOTE: the pickup selector toggle switch must be in the 'Neck' position for the series setting to work (a necessary compromise for this type of layout).

Basically, when the neck tone push/pull is down (parallel setting) and the pickup selector is in the 'Middle' position you both pickups combined in parallel as per usual. However, when the neck tone push/pull is up (series setting) the output of the bridge pickup is connected to the input of the neck pickup, so you must have the pickup selector in the 'Neck' position for this setting to work. If the selector is in the 'Middle' position while the series setting is active the neck pickup will be shorted and you'll only hear the bridge... which can actually be useful to quickly switch between series (both pups in the neck position) and just bridge (middle position). Also, when you are using the series setting in the neck position the neck volume will act as a master volume, and the bridge volume will have no effect.

The kill switch just shorts the output to ground and can be a SPST, SPDT and/or momentary toggle or push button, whatever your flavour.

[ihasmario]

Sweet. Nearly all wired up now. Gave the neck pickup a little strum, sounds good.

Hopefully I'll get it all done by monday, then I have the annoying task of getting the electronics inside.

[ihasmario]

All wired up, works a treat.

Just a quick question - when I have bridge volume and bridge tone up it kills the sound (I think it's split bridge and out of phase).

Should this be killing the sound or do I need to wiggle some wires? :)

[ihasmario]

Btw, I've never used a kill switch before but there's some "delay" in the sound killing straight off - is this normal or is the switch a bit dodgy?

[WeirdBits]

The switch 'delay' will depend on the switch and its mechanical action, some will be faster than others.

The Bridge vol pot up splits the pup and bridge tone up should then swap the phase (+ to ground, - to hot), this shouldn't kill the sound. By itself the bridge pup should sound the same but it should give the 'out of phase' sound when combined with the neck pup in the middle position. Most likely it's something shorting across one of the bridge tone switch terminals in the up position (the - still contacting the ground somehow), so check that first.

[ihasmario]

Got any recommendations on switches for the kill when I get around to modifying it?

[Fretworn]

Btw, I've never used a kill switch before but there's some "delay" in the sound killing straight off - is this normal or is the switch a bit dodgy?

Residual current in the cap leaking through??

[ihasmario]

How could I test that Fretworn?

[ihasmario]

I've listed the symptoms so hopefully we can figure it out before I pull it all out (hopefully I can still get the Bridge Volume out by itself).

1) Selector on both pickups, both humbucking. Volume max on bridge volume greatly reduces volume/kills the sound, a touch off from max and it's all good: nice and loud
2) Selector on bridge, both humbucking. The bridge pickup doesn't give much volume (or maybe any?).
3) Selector on bridge, bridge push pull "up". The bridge gives perfect volume.
4) Neck volume seems to act as a global volume control when the pickup selector is on both pickups (LP wiring???)

I guess this means that there is a short on either one of the jumpers on the Bridge Volume, or it's either the white or white striped wire?

Or am I misunderstanding how to get around the comprimise you mentioned?

[WeirdBits]

Is this all with the neck tone 'up' (series setting) and only when it is up? Or, does it happen with all the pots 'down' as well?

Edit: Thinking about it, points 1 & 2 are the sort of symptoms you see when a volume pot is wired backwards. That is, the hot and ground on the left and right lugs of the pot have been swapped. What happens when you turn the pot fully counter-clockwise, do you get full volume then?

[ihasmario]

Hey Weirdy,

The problem with the bridge volume happens whether bridge tone is up or down.

The bridge volume works perfectly when the coil is split - so maybe it's the bridge hot wire that is the problem?

Some other symptoms:
1) Bridge quiet when selector is on bridge and bridge tone is up
2) No volume when selector is on bridge, tone and volume are up.
3) Perfect volume when selector is on bridge, tone is down and volume is up (coil split)

It's the last maybe 5-10 degrees of rotation that are causing the volume problem, and it only happens when the bridge volume is towards max when the selector is on both

I can video the problem if the problem isn't obvious this way. Everything else seems to work perfectly, I think

I guess that makes it the bridge hot (orange) that is the problem?

[WeirdBits]

If it is working ok when the bridge volume is up (split), that would suggest the black & white wire has a bad connection on the bridge volume push/pull. There may also be something strange with the cross-over wires on the bridge tone push/pull that affects it when in the up position. Not sure. I don't suppose you took any photos of your wiring before you installed it?

[ihasmario]

Nah, I was testing it outside and didn't find any problems. Maybe it happened when I was shoving it in.

I'll pull out the pot and have a look on the weekend :)

[ihasmario]

I pulled some of it down into the body (having a hard time getting it out). It looks like I am missing the long green jumper between the tone and volume (or I connected it to the ground out of habit with green wires)

[WeirdBits]

That would probably do it, the light green link is effectively the negative for the pickup.

[ihasmario]

I think it turned out that one of the grounds on the side of the pot was disconnected, now the volume is perfect the all the way. I couldn't quite follow my wiring because I couldn't pull it out properly and I've got some weird grounding scheme going on (semi-balanced to double the capacitance to act as an extremely subtle treble bleed), so I just added in an extra link for the parallel (green link).

I think I found out that the "quiet volume" when both were maxed was actually just out of phase working, it's still doing it now but it's working with both pots now, not just one :)

All good now!

I think maybe the caps I used also aren't ideal for these pups, but I don't really care because it's only just shy of reaching "unusably dull" when they're closed - so I've pretty much got all the range I want.

[WeirdBits]

The out of phase setting should only have an effect when in the middle pickup position, with both pickups on. Then, switching the bridge tone from down to up you should hear a thinning of the sound, sort of scooping it out (with maybe some drop in volume). If it is making the sound quiet or otherwise changing it when you are not in the middle toggle position then there may still be something wrong with the wiring on the bridge tone push/pull.

[ihasmario]

Hey Weirdy,

Just ran a test. The "roll in" of the tone change comes in and out like I'd expect for out of something 180 degrees out of phase - it does come in a little quick, but that's probably my choice in taper.

As an example, the sound is "thin" and seems quieter when the volumes are matched, but becomes bassier and louder when they are mismatched, you can get some pretty awesome effects with it!

:)

There's no audible difference between in and out when the selector is on neck or bridge - but there's a slight click/change when the switch is "dead" between clicks (?) on the bridge, but I think that's just because of the switch and also because it's the bridge pup being used.

I think we've done it :)

[WeirdBits]

Cool, now you can spend some time playing with all the tone variations.