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fatmunkey
01-03-2015, 02:06 PM
Hey guys, I've been slowly working on a TL-1 in my spare time, and got the Dingotone Karajini Red kit for it. Sanded the body well down to 400 grit, made sure it was nice and smooth. Stain and intensifying coats went on mostly without drama, with the exception of an intensifying coat that I got grit on due to a dust storm (I live in western NSW). With the clear coat, I got two on without drama. At this point, I should mention I've been leaving it a week between coats right the way through, because i really only have time to look in on it on a Sunday arvo. The clear was starting to build, and then the last coat went all splotchy; heavy and thick in some parts, non existent in others. And here's the thing, I make sure I use thin coats, applied according to the video with a small cloth, and I make sure I use light to ensure a complete coat (i.e. it's all wet and glossy looking). So today I hit the shed, 0000 steel wooled the blotches, and the whole thing went hazy, and then reapplied a thin coat just to the front of the body to see what happens.

A couple questions: is this the right way of going about this repair, and if I've completely messed it up where should I go from here? I've got a sander, so could take the whole finish off pretty easily and resand ready to go again, but maybe I would just solid coat it this time. Help me, oh havers of wisdom!

PS: my only previous wood finishing experience is the off-brand ES335 I built last year, and I finished that in Tru-Oil.

stan
01-03-2015, 03:34 PM
yes mate, just sand it back a little and reapply and see how you go. Considering where you live, it might pay to have a drying cupboard or some other safe place to let it dry/cure.
Take care when sanding the cap too much, as they are pretty thin: you dont want to go through.
Shake Dingo tone well before use, also keep the cap on as much as possible to prevent drying, even when applying.

fatmunkey
01-03-2015, 05:44 PM
Thanks Stan. I now open, pour, close. Lesson learnt ;)

If I were to look at solid colouring, maybe not this build but on another future one, do you have any recommendations there? I've read that the Behlen nitro rattle cans are good, but they only have a couple colours. Might also be worth mentioning that I always use overdrive/distortion, so pure bell tones aren't required.

dingobass
01-03-2015, 09:40 PM
Out of curiosity, can you remember what the weather was like on the day you applied the coat that went weird?
temperatures over 35 c may cause the finish to tack off really fast, end result could be a splotchy and uneven coat.
I ask this so I can make adjustments to the finish if needs be..

stan
02-03-2015, 05:56 AM
Thanks Stan. I now open, pour, close. Lesson learnt ;)

If I were to look at solid colouring, maybe not this build but on another future one, do you have any recommendations there? I've read that the Behlen nitro rattle cans are good, but they only have a couple colours. Might also be worth mentioning that I always use overdrive/distortion, so pure bell tones aren't required.

I hear the Behlen stuff is good, but have only used their clear.
I've used artists ink with good results (see my sisters LP build thread)
Auto paint for a solid finish works well, dont forget to undercoat. I top coat with acrylic clear or wipe on poly. People have had good results with Tru Oil as a clear finish.

Consider satin and matte finishes for when you want to see the grain patterns with translucent finishes.

As with all things, consider the toxicity of the finish that you are applying. Always have good ventilation and breathing protection.

DB's Dingotone was developed to provide nice finishes with more natural products. DB can tell you much more about them and give you great support

fatmunkey
02-03-2015, 07:23 AM
hey DB: yep, it was probably a 40 degree day. And then two days later we had a massive storm that resulted in 100% humidity for around 24 hours. It was probably this combination that killed it.

Stan: Thanks for the info. With auto paint, are you just using spray cans from supersheep? And undercoating grey primer? My biggest concern is the toxicity as the wife and dog both use the garage as a thoroughfare, but I could lock them out for a day or so to allow the nasties to settle. The other thought was modifying one of these: http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/20181113/ as a mobile spray booth, spray outside then store it in the little tool shed down the back (they're pretty cheap at bigW or greenshed).

dingobass
02-03-2015, 07:56 AM
Ahhhhh... Yep, over 35 and things go pearshaped.. Had this happen to another customer who lives in Western NSW, so your experience confirms my theory.
The humidity a few days after the heat shouldnt have too much bearing on the finish, however had it been that humid when applying you could have problems as well.

Thanks for the info, and if you run out of finish coat flick me an email and I will send more out to you free of charge.

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 08:20 AM
Ahhhhh... Yep, over 35 and things go pearshaped.. Had this happen to another customer who lives in Western NSW, so your experience confirms my theory.
The humidity a few days after the heat shouldnt have too much bearing on the finish, however had it been that humid when applying you could have problems as well.

Thanks for the info, and if you run out of finish coat flick me an email and I will send more out to you free of charge.

For what it's worth we had some really warm days when I had my little DT mishap too, it was well into the 40's so probably more like 50 in the shed.

stan
02-03-2015, 08:34 AM
hey DB: yep, it was probably a 40 degree day. And then two days later we had a massive storm that resulted in 100% humidity for around 24 hours. It was probably this combination that killed it.

Stan: Thanks for the info. With auto paint, are you just using spray cans from supersheep? And undercoating grey primer? My biggest concern is the toxicity as the wife and dog both use the garage as a thoroughfare, but I could lock them out for a day or so to allow the nasties to settle. The other thought was modifying one of these: http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/20181113/ as a mobile spray booth, spray outside then store it in the little tool shed down the back (they're pretty cheap at bigW or greenshed).

I get mine from an automotive paint specialist, but alot of their premixed stuff is similar to the auto parts traders stuff. Paint, like all things: you get what you pay for.
I use high build auto primer from a can, so yes: straight onto the timber and it works a treat. I use upol and it's about $18 a can, pricey but very good.

With all paints, and most other finishes, build up in light coats. 3 fine ones are always better than 1 thick one. Helps curing. With colour, as soon as it is even an coverage is complete - you have enough, doesnt have to be thick. Always clear over the top to protect. That can be thicker if you want, but still built with thin coats.

Acrylic paints take quite a while to cure and even if the top is hard, they can be soft underneath, them them plenty of time - weeks, to fully cure.

They hang about in the air a fair bit as well, and a thoroughfare is no place for spray paint - your outdoors idea is a good one.

Fretworn
02-03-2015, 09:18 AM
My own experience is hot and humid (like the whole of this Summer in Sydney) don't seem to agree with DT top-coat. Next guitar will be over winter, so we'll see how that works out.

stan
02-03-2015, 09:34 AM
hot and humid doesnt agree with acrylic spray paint either, good point Fretty

fatmunkey
02-03-2015, 01:08 PM
DB: thanks for the offer, really appreciate that :) I'll let you know how we go

Hot and humid doesn't agree with me either :P

Thanks for the guidance Stan. Any thoughts on the poly v nitro tone debate, or is it all rubbish as I suspect?

dingobass
02-03-2015, 02:10 PM
DB: thanks for the offer, really appreciate that :) I'll let you know how we go

Hot and humid doesn't agree with me either :P

Thanks for the guidance Stan. Any thoughts on the poly v nitro tone debate, or is it all rubbish as I suspect?

That is a moot question indeed...
Personally, I feel that Guitars covered in a layer of plastic dont sound as nice as ones finished in traditional finishes..... But this is a topic of hot debate amoungst Luthier circles.
It would seem that the thinner you can get the finish the better, regardless of what finish you use.
However, does it seem right to cover a natural material such as timber with a layer of plastic?
Tone is derived from a combination of factors.
Quality and type of timber used in the body and neck, the material the nut is made from and the bridge used...

fatmunkey
02-03-2015, 05:17 PM
I see the concrete block guitar on youtube, and think "yeah it's all just pickups man," and then I pick up my dad's old 70s Bob Weir Ibanez and think "holy crapballs, nitro and wood and tone and all sorts of awesome." The 335 I built has super thin stain and truoil, and a bone nut, on a cheap and nasty kit, and it just sustains for days and sounds lovely. I'm with you DB, as far as a nice clean guitar goes, its all about wood and vibrations. But on something built for noise, I can't hear a difference.

TL;DR: the TL-1 needs to have a thin coat. But when I build that Floyd wearing shredder, it'll be solid paint.

dingobass
02-03-2015, 05:33 PM
You got it in one... Things built for noise can be made out of anything.
A lot of the Mosrites built in the late '70s early '80s were made from MDF...
Then you have the plexiglass monstrosities...
When players use the fuzz pedal tone is not even in the equation!

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 05:39 PM
When players use the fuzz pedal tone is not even in the equation!

You what now?!?

dingobass
02-03-2015, 05:39 PM
I had our fearless leader, Adam's 1970's Tele here for a pickup transplant and general service...
That Guitar has tone!
Unlike the pieces of cnc machined clone crap built by monkeys that Fender dish up these days, that Guitar has character, class and TONE!

(Not having a shot at our guys like Jarrod who use a cnc.. The big difference is that unlike the bunnings rejects that churn out modern F and G brand Guitars, Jarrod is a player and he knows what he is doing)

dingobass
02-03-2015, 05:42 PM
You what now?!?

Yep, tone is killed by distortion... Even a chipboard axe would sound great with the fuzz :)

dingobass
02-03-2015, 05:43 PM
I love yankin ya chain, Bargie :)

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 05:45 PM
Yep, tone is killed by distortion

Don't tell Gary Moore, Mark Knopfler or Clapton that...

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 05:46 PM
I love yankin ya chain, Bargie :)

I know you do:-)

keloooe
02-03-2015, 05:46 PM
I had our fearless leader, Adam's 1970's Tele here for a pickup transplant and general service...
That Guitar has tone!


I played a friend's Tele from the 70's last year and I have to agree with you DB, it really hits most other guitars these days out of the park! If only every production guitar was like this, then we would all be so much happier....

keloooe
02-03-2015, 05:47 PM
Yep, tone is killed by distortion...

What about my setup, with lower gain on the pedalz and more gain out of my hands? To my ears it sounds a lot better than having the gain cranked up!

ponch
02-03-2015, 05:52 PM
So apart from dt, what are some other suitable top coats that add protection to a guitar without sacrificing on tone?

dingobass
02-03-2015, 05:54 PM
Don't tell Gary Moore, Mark Knopfler or Clapton that...

Aaaah yes, but they use it in a minimalistic way, so you can still hear the clean sound as well..
I am sure that accomplished axe men such as yourself also use fuzz sparingly.
I was referring to the metal heads that push everything to max.. Those guys may as well play a stick with fence wire strings...

keloooe
02-03-2015, 05:57 PM
Being a massive Muse fan I use fuzz, but not over the top (I mainly use fuzz for bass :D )

dingobass
02-03-2015, 06:01 PM
So apart from dt, what are some other suitable top coats that add protection to a guitar without sacrificing on tone?

I guess the answer to that question is (life sentence in naughty room coming up) Nitro. BUT it must be applied thinly.
Also some of the new generation 2pacs have been producing some half decent results, but again, the best ones are about half a micron thick when finished..
Our good friend Perry Ormsby uses a finish that cures in six minutes under UV lights, he then cuts it right back to less than one micron.
The biggest thing is this stuff is LETHAL, he has had a bad experience from a very short exposure to this finish.. He said he was feeling like he wanted to die for about 8 hours!

ponch
02-03-2015, 06:03 PM
Yeah 2k is nasty and I will never use the gear again. And I hear Nitro is just as bad for you. There has to be something else.

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 06:11 PM
You're right, just because you can turn an amps gain up to 10. it doesn't mean you need to, or should. Dimebag Darrell (R.I.P) springs to mind instantly, it just sounded like someone strumming white noise.
On the other hand, take Gary Moore's Parisienne Walkways, OMG the world would be a lesser place without distortion in that case and he's driving that amp fairly hard, that's almost like the epitomy of "tone" in my opinion.
I agree, a little goes a long way, but to say "when players use the fuzz pedal tone is not even in the equation"...nope, you should retract that immediately;-)

andrewdosborne
02-03-2015, 06:11 PM
Greg Koch (Fender Roadshow) made a comment in regards to all the 'F' custom shop guitars he tests. He suggested he had a general dislike for reliced guitars, however as they have less finish (nitro) on them their tone was far superior to a 'standard' finished axe.

I recently rebuilt a mim tele that was covered in that awful poly finish. Sounded like a dead squid. I refinished in Wudtone and about 3 layers of top coat - it now sounds totally awesome (with no fuzz effect !)

dingobass
02-03-2015, 06:12 PM
Yeah 2k is nasty and I will never use the gear again. And I hear Nitro is just as bad for you. There has to be something else.

The only things I have found that wont kill you are DT, shellac and wax finishes...

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 06:14 PM
The only things I have found that wont kill you are DT, shellac and wax finishes...

I've been tempted to try DT, it smells so good!

JK

ponch
02-03-2015, 06:14 PM
Awesome to hear shellac is a go. Still hanging to get the new 7 to use my blue dt but it's also nice to have a few options for custom builds down the track. Thanks dB.

keloooe
02-03-2015, 06:17 PM
I'm also keen to use DT on the LP.... That would be very cool to do a DT triple burst!

dingobass
02-03-2015, 06:19 PM
Greg Koch (Fender Roadshow) made a comment in regards to all the 'F' custom shop guitars he tests. He suggested he had a general dislike for reliced guitars, however as they have less finish (nitro) on them their tone was far superior to a 'standard' finished axe.

I recently rebuilt a mim tele that was covered in that awful poly finish. Sounded like a dead squid. I refinished in Wudtone and about 3 layers of top coat - it now sounds totally awesome (with no fuzz effect !)

Yep, its all about less finish is best...
BTW, I absolutley detest those rip off relic things that F are foisting on folk... I mean, who in thier right mind is going to pay 38k for a 5150 Frankenstrat copy?

keloooe
02-03-2015, 06:20 PM
$37k is in the name

ponch
02-03-2015, 06:21 PM
Bit rich. I've got a chisel and an old ibanez begging for a paint job. Bet I could do it for cheaper than that.

dingobass
02-03-2015, 06:23 PM
I agree, a little goes a long way, but to say "when players use the fuzz pedal tone is not even in the equation"...nope, you should retract that immediately;-)

Notice I said players, not Guitarists.... Massive difference :)

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 06:25 PM
I mean, who in thier right mind is going to pay 38k for a 5150 Frankenstrat copy?

Hahaha Probably lots of idiots with too much money. People buy Lamborghini's...

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 06:28 PM
Notice I said players, not Guitarists.... Massive difference :)

Hey hey, don't go all politician on me;-)

andrewdosborne
02-03-2015, 06:28 PM
Hahaha Probably lots of idiots with too much money. People buy Lamborghini's...

I couldn't have put it better myself!

dingobass
02-03-2015, 06:35 PM
At least Lambos are built with passion....
Go with passion and break down with passion :)...

bargeloobs
02-03-2015, 06:44 PM
At least Lambos are built with passion....
Go with passion and break down with passion :)...

Not to mention passionately ugly:p

keloooe
02-03-2015, 07:05 PM
Not to mention passionately ugly:p

How? I'd love to see a Lambo sitting in my house, I quite like the looks of them!

ponch
03-03-2015, 02:44 AM
Yeah I'll have an orange lambo too thanks. Maybe we can get a pbg group discount?

keloooe
03-03-2015, 04:35 AM
Oh yes please!

fatmunkey
08-03-2015, 01:36 PM
Hey guys just an update, if this splotchy effect happens to you, you need to cut it back and then reapply your oil. I used 0000 steel wool and 400grit wet/dry to get the nasty looking clear coat up, then left it a couple days, then applied a thin coat of dingotone finish over it. You're basically taking off most of the clear coat, but a thin coat on and its back to looking good again. Another couple coats of top and we should be finished.

BTW, DB, would love to take you up on that offer of some extra finish if thats cool?

dingobass
08-03-2015, 02:27 PM
No worries mate.
Flick me an email with your address and I will post it to you tomorrow :)

stan
08-03-2015, 03:59 PM
sounds like you have it sorted now munkey dude, good to hear

fatmunkey
08-03-2015, 08:07 PM
Thanks DB and Stan. I was worried that I was going to waste a couple months of finish drying time, glad I'm back on track :)

stan
09-03-2015, 05:01 PM
need some pics please!