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ponch
05-10-2014, 08:27 AM
Hey guys, just wondering if any of you sell the kits you make? Reason I ask, I've been putting up pics of my builds on Facebook and a few muso mates have shown a bit of interest. Up until now I didn't pay too much attention to it thinking of was just friends being nice, but just today I've had 4 people ask me for prices on the back of my lp in last months gotm.

Just wondering what you tell the customers about the guitars. I plan on saying that I source the body and.neck pre made but all hardware and electronics, finishes etc are customisable so it's a natter of their budget. Obviously I don't plan to price any guitar over the $1k mark that's built by somebody else.

I don't really have an issue selling kit guitars I've put together as long as they know what it is beforehand.

Which leads me to my next q. As a chef I refuse to buy in a product pre prepared and put it on my menu. It's definitely pride in my work but I don't see it as a bad thing. Same goes for guitars. I'd be more comfortable selling a guitar I've built from scratch. Even if I source necks, which I plan to do for now, and just build the bodies, at least I know I did it. I saw on gavs blog he did some dry runs on 45mm pine to get the hang of making a body. I'm planning to make the trip to the green house on my days off to pick up some pine to do a half dozen blanks. I've got a plunge router and that's about it. What router bits should I invest in? I'm planning on doing Tele style bodies for now caus they seem the easiest. Also, for templates, should I go plY or mdf and what thickness? Are there any other essential tools you suggest I pick up apart from wood, titebond, rasp, router bits, clamps, template material? I plan on getting wood that's already been surfaced and jointed, dressed or whatever it's called, but in reality, how dressed is it?

If you don't want to discuss any of this here, please just.email me at Andrew.s.walker1984@gmail.com.

Thanks heaps guys.

GlennGP
05-10-2014, 11:26 AM
With my level of expertise (i.e. low) I've never done more than ask someone to cover costs (i.e. kit cost plus any extras bought for the finished product, like pickups or scratchplates). If you're consistently turning out guitars that are sweet, with great intonation, though, I'd not be ashamed to ask for something above costs, in consideration of the hours and skill involved. IMHO.

dingobass
05-10-2014, 11:26 PM
I like your attitude :)
There is no dramas with selling kits you have made, as long as the customer knows it is a kit... As for price, that is alwys subjective but IMHO they really are not worth any more than $500-$800 finished.

When it comes to scratch builds I always advise that it is best to start with good quality timbers, even for your first build.
why? Simply because a decent chunk of tree will cause you to take more care, thus giving you a much better Guitar.

With templates, I prefer 12mm marine ply.
I would look at getting Jarrod to CNC your templates, having seen his work I can fully reccomend him.
The more accurate the template, the better the result.

Router bits.. You will need a few, preferably not from any of the big sheds full of shite. Carbatec sell good quality ones at a very reasonable price.
So you will need a 1/2" and 1/4" bearing guided profile bit for pup cavities, and 3/4" for the outside profile of the Axe.
Remember to cut no more than 4mm at a time, this will lengthen the life of your bits.
A 3/4" Forstner drill bit is handy for removing the bulk of timber from routouts, this will also help to lengthen the life of your router bits.

A jig saw is also very handy for removing the bulk of timber from the outside profile, with practice you can get within 1-2mm of your line.

Hope this helps, and feel free to email me with any questions at dingobass@pitbullguitars.com

Happy building! :)

ponch
06-10-2014, 12:18 AM
Thanks guys for the replies. I let them know that while the woods used are not too bad they are pre built pieces that I haven't made. As for the prices, if its a kit build I'm with Glenn, basically spec the build to how the customer wants it, price it with receipts and that'd be it, it would be cool if they covered to cost of the build and no more. That way I can enjoy this hobby and it doesn't have to cost squillions.

As for the wood choices, I should have clarified. I have no intention to put the first few bodies I make in to action, or even finish them. They probably won't go past the sanding stage. I've never used a router in my life so these are purely dry runs to get a feel for the machines before I build a body for real. Great tip db to get Jarrod to knock up some templates, and I'd imagine they'd be cheapepr than sm as well. I'll have to get in contact with him when he returns.

In all seriousness though, how essential is a drill press? I like the idea of the spindle sander attatchments without having to buy a seperate spindle sander. Thanks again for your help guys.

ponch
06-10-2014, 12:20 AM
And for the bits, I'm using a plunge router, not a table router. Do I need to get the bits with bearings on top or bottom? Such a new world this luthier stuff.

dingobass
06-10-2014, 12:25 AM
No worries mate.
I agree with practicing on some scrap to learn how to fly the router.... They are a dangerous bit of kit and need to be treated with respect.
I have had a few close shaves with bits flying out.... One still resides on my neighbours roof!

A drill press is very handy, and those sanding bobbins are a fantastic idea.
Again, dont invest in an el cheapo from the big shed. Spnd a few more dollars and get a good quality one and it will last a lifetime and gives a much better result.

ponch
06-10-2014, 12:29 AM
Ok great thanks db. I'll try find a good tool place in mackay to go check out. Not really familiar with the place but I'm sure there would be something. As for real body woods, are there any online places where you can order blanks?

ponch
06-10-2014, 02:00 AM
For the router bits, does this sound right? A 1/2" and a 1/4" for pup routes, neck pocket and cavities with bearings on the top to follow the template, and 2 3/4", one with the bearing on top and the other with the bearing down the bottom for bodies. What length of the bits is advisable? And a roundover bit for the edges as well I guess.

Brendan
06-10-2014, 04:31 AM
Body blanks are available from Pitbull - DB has some nice slabs of wood just for this purpose!
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/bodies-and-necks/

My 2c - pretty much resonates what's above - if someone knows that it's a kit and is cool with that, then if they are happy with the price, so be it! Depending on taste, additional pups, electonics, etc will add value, but I'd be clear with your mates that there's a difference between yourself and a professional luthier who has studied and has significant experience with building kits, etc.

Personally though, I'd be more tempted to get them to buy the kit, bring around a couple of drinks and work on it together - the feeling of playing something you have made is pretty special, and I reckon that lots of players are missing out at the moment.

ponch
06-10-2014, 05:54 AM
Thanks for your input mate. Yeah I've told everyone I'm not selling them yet but will start practicing bodies soon and go from there. I think it's just mates being supportive more than expecting a hand carved archtop and they are well aware I'm new to this.
As much as I'd love for them to come over and build, I live 1500ks from home right now so I got into this as a hobby to keep my self busy on days off.
Managed to score a drill press today, just a little ryobi unit with enough travel to get through a body for ferrules etc for $20. So at past count its a router, free, drill press, $20. Rad.
Still stuck on these router bits though. I'm writing up a shoopping list so I don't forget anything.

dingobass
06-10-2014, 07:04 AM
These are the bits I use the most in my plunge router and laminate cutter...

I have some beasties that i use in my router bench, but i will save those for another day...
http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/l7572-image.jpg

ponch
06-10-2014, 07:18 AM
Thanks mate. Those straight ones, are they flush cut or pattern following?

dingobass
06-10-2014, 10:34 PM
They be pattern following bits :)

ponch
07-10-2014, 12:03 AM
Great one, thanks heaps mate.

jarrod
07-10-2014, 10:34 AM
I agree with DB on a perfectly made kit guitar being between 500 to 800 (top end price must be showroom look).
scratch build with good tone woods is worth what someone will pay for it. My highest offer up to now for the Nebular is $2100 but this is Nebular number one so it will never go up for sale. The next one how ever will but if you convert it back to an hourly rate it will frighten you.

ponch
07-10-2014, 10:54 AM
Thanks mate. I think the only way for me to price a kit build is just add up all the parts to build it without Labour and that'd be that. So the kit price plus any upgrades, cost of finish materials excluding consumables and shipping. So for a stained sta, totally stock would come in under $200.
Not worried about making money of this. My family were pretty poor growing up. I saved up to get my first real guitar, a second hand bolt on mid 90s Epi lp. My band came second in a high school battle of the bands comp in qld and we got a voucher for a music shop so we split it and I bought a jb/59 set and installed them my self. Onto becoming a chef, apprentice wage of $5.70 an hour and instead of buying guitars, I tweaked the ones I had. I guess it's always been a bit of a hobby. Now I'm in a decent paying job I can afford to buy some basic tools to build something I've always wanted, and if a mate wants me to build one for them, they can cover the cost of materials and that'd be it. Sorry for the rant, been a huge day.

dingobass
07-10-2014, 01:03 PM
As Jarrod said, if you priced up the hours vs the sale price you would have a heart attack.....
For me, its not so much about the cash (as nice as cash is) it is about the satisfaction of handcrafting a unique instrument that blows any store bought clone out of the water..

The greatest payment for me is the look of absolute and total amazement and joy when a customer plugs in and hits that first chord..... Money just cant buy that :)

ponch
07-10-2014, 02:34 PM
Yeah see, I want to do just that, albeit on a smaller scale. I think I'll start with bodies and use sources necks til I get that down, then get necks down and start coming up with some designs.
How many goes did it take for you to build an instrument that's playable. Not satisfactory or suitable to sell, but a functional guitar?

dingobass
07-10-2014, 10:19 PM
Well, i was fortunate to grow up around craftsmen cabinet makers and learned to work with timber working tools at a very young age.
I spent many years refurbishing old bangers from pawn shops etc and by osmosis learned how they went together.
Then in my late 20’s i went to art school and learned about design etc so when i built my first it all fell in place.
I should add that the only tools i had at that time was a router, one chisel a rasp, cordless drill and a jigsaw.....
http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/13da1-image.jpg

ponch
07-10-2014, 10:50 PM
Mate that's stunning! How'd you go doing the neck with the bljig saw? It looks doing scarfs or even the fenderish dip would be a pain right in arse. If I can do a Tele body a quarter that good I'd be pretty rapt

dingobass
07-10-2014, 11:07 PM
The trick with necks is to use a template and router.
Flat profile Fender type bolt ons are an easy way to begin.

Have a trawl through the non pitbull section and you will find a few of my builds and the processes are documented there :)

dingobass
07-10-2014, 11:11 PM
http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au/community/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=357.0

Check this thread out, shows the process from a couple of chunks of tree to finished Axe

ponch
08-10-2014, 12:18 AM
Thanks so much mate!

ponch
08-10-2014, 06:30 AM
I'm really sorry to bring this router bit stuff again, but you said I need a 1/2" and a 3/4" bit for the cavaties, and a 3/4 for the body. Pardon my total stupidity but is the measurement of the bit the diameter or the length?

wokkaboy
08-10-2014, 06:57 AM
Hey Andrew, no stress mate about questions, that would be the length. Make sure you work out if your router can take 1/2 or 1/4 " size router bit shafts. If your router takes 1/2" shafts you can get a collet to use 1/4" shafts but there's the risk of a bit of slip so try and match the size of the shaft to the router chuck
Once you make one or two passes cutting a body edge with a template you should be able to remove the template and use the cut edge as the pattern following edge

dingobass
08-10-2014, 06:58 AM
My bad, i should have been more precise in my description...
Those are diameter measurements.

dingobass
08-10-2014, 06:59 AM
As Woks pointed out, make sure you get the correct shaft size to fit the collet of your router too.

wokkaboy
08-10-2014, 07:05 AM
oh ok DB they are diameter, then what length bits would you recommend DB ? I've got about a 10mm, 25mm and think its 40mm length bits

ponch
08-10-2014, 07:40 AM
Thanks guys. I'm compiling a shopping list now, ill post it shortly and see if you can see anything missing.

wokkaboy
08-10-2014, 07:55 AM
no worries Andrew, if your router takes 1/2" shafts then go for that size bit shaft. Make sure your collet spanner can tighten the bit well is very important

ponch
08-10-2014, 08:01 AM
Blank-
45mm untreated dressed pine

Blank prep-
Straight edge
A plane of some description

Blank build-up
Titebond
A thousand clamps

Template-
1/8 mdf for template for the template
3/4 marine ply for the template proper
Double sided tape, skinny

Router bits-
Whatever you guy say

Drill press gear-
Forstner bit
Sanding bobbin with 80 grit

Measurement gear-
Steel rule
vernier calipers if you think I'd need them

Does this sound like I'm on the right track?

ponch
08-10-2014, 08:06 AM
And a collet spanner as well as a drill press Chuck key. I've heard of guys loctiting router bits in. Does this make sense or is it just a waste of time?

dingobass
08-10-2014, 08:47 AM
All very handy kit to have.
Don't bother loctiting the bit, it will make it difficult to get out and may be counter productive as any goo left in the collet will prevent safe installation of the next bit... And we all know what happens then.

ponch
08-10-2014, 08:57 AM
So for the body router bit, a 1" length, and for the other cavity ones, 3/4" length?

ponch
08-10-2014, 08:59 AM
Haha yeah don't want to donate roof ornaments to the neighbors.

ponch
08-10-2014, 12:52 PM
No idea if this is quarter or half inch! This is the collar which had some smaller piece in it, and the bit that was in the router. Bit is Defs quarter inch shaft but is that a reducer in the bolt bit?


http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fro6o-IMAG1056.jpg
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/19986-IMAG1057.jpg

ponch
08-10-2014, 01:03 PM
Nm. It's a quarter inch. Might just pony up for a half inch tomorrow.

dingobass
08-10-2014, 01:25 PM
1/4 is fine for plunge routers.

Gavin1393
08-10-2014, 03:02 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 5, 2014, 14:54
Managed to score a drill press today, just a little ryobi unit with enough travel to get through a body for ferrules etc for $20. So at past count its a router, free, drill press, $20. Rad.


Had the Ryobi myself, it will not give you the reach you need to put the ferrules in a telecaster. I know this first hand and my Tele still carries the scars of my hand held attempt! Hence DB's advice NOT to get stuff from / sold by the big green store....

ponch
08-10-2014, 03:07 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. Db, for safety sake do you think it wise to get a new router regardless instead of using one my brother just found in an empty house?
Gav, the drill press I got was second hand from a local up here. Has 55mm travel. Would that be enough?

pablopepper
08-10-2014, 09:05 PM
As for loctite, I believe I mentioned that. What I was getting at was putting loctite on the thread of the screw that holds the bearing on to the shaft so the bearing doesn't fly off mid cut.

ponch
08-10-2014, 09:10 PM
Ahhhhhh, see? This is why my n00b level exceeds 9000. Sorry for the mix up pabs.

wokkaboy
09-10-2014, 12:20 AM
Andrew, with the drill press you say 55mm travel, is this the vertical height it can drop ? The measurement you need is the distance from centre of drill to the press frame - needs to be about 140mm from memory for bridge bush holes of a LP and probably similar for a tele string through ferules. A cheaper smaller press may only have a useable distance of 100 odd mm.
See how your 2nd hand 1/4" shaft router goes but if you end up upgrading to a new 1/2" shaft then it's recommended all your router bits are a 1/2" shaft. Maybe worth getting the 1/2" shaft router now, should have less trouble than using a 2nd hand one

ponch
09-10-2014, 03:54 AM
With ya now mate. I'll check it all out tonight. Hope it's all good! Went to every hardware store and mackay, rang a few more. No one has 1/2" shank pattern follower bits with bearing on the shaft of any description. Will go with carbatec seeing as it comes so highly regarded.

Gavin1393
09-10-2014, 09:38 AM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 8, 2014, 00:07
Gav, the drill press I got was second hand from a local up here. Has 55mm travel. Would that be enough?

55mm??? ....probably around 95mm short. :(

For a tele you need at least 150mm *


* Also need a solid steel chain and secure lock to keep the tele from the Telenapper - but that's a different story!

ponch
09-10-2014, 11:58 AM
Well bugger then haha.

ponch
09-10-2014, 12:12 PM
Can you guys recommend one that won't break the bank?

dingobass
09-10-2014, 10:20 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 8, 2014, 00:07
Thanks for the replies guys. Db, for safety sake do you think it wise to get a new router regardless instead of using one my brother just found in an empty house?
Gav, the drill press I got was second hand from a local up here. Has 55mm travel. Would that be enough?

Bosch make a ripper of a router that will cost you under $200.
The model is POF1200AE.

ponch
10-10-2014, 04:41 AM
Thanks db. Now to save up for a beast drill press.

wokkaboy
10-10-2014, 06:43 AM
well done Andrew, like your drive and enthusiasm to get started on scratch builds. Takes a bit of setting up and expense but it will all be worth it in the end. Everyone has to start at the beginning

Gavin1393
10-10-2014, 08:16 AM
If you wanna know what tools you can get from the likes of StewMac just visit my or DB's man-cave. We got 'em all - which is also why we live on bread and beans every day (and why I try and get banished to the naughty room where there is beer and pizza aplenty!)

wokkaboy
10-10-2014, 09:28 AM
your not wrong Gav. Between you and DB you guys must own 20% shares of Stewmac !
We did get served hot dogs at your man cave last visit !

Gavin1393
10-10-2014, 11:12 AM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on October 9, 2014, 18:28
your not wrong Gav. Between you and DB you guys must own 20% shares of Stewmac !
We did get served hot dogs at your man cave last visit !

Yeah! Sold one of their awful fret crowning tools after having previously acquired a better option, enabled the reckless purchase that weekend of Hot-Dogs.....

ponch
10-10-2014, 11:28 AM
Yeah sm is turning into a fetish site for me. Unfortunately while I have a small budget, sm gear just can't be on the radar just yet. No idea how much having a kid costs so trying to put as much away as possible. Bad news though. Building a work bench today and my jigsaw went pop. Yay.

Question time though. Half inch shank bits are universally better than quarter right. Looking through carbatech and a few others and all the bits I need are all 1/4 though. Does the bits for the pup cavaties and neck matter if it's a smaller shank. I found a half inch shank 1.5" long flush cutter for bodies though.

wokkaboy
10-10-2014, 03:04 PM
hey Andrew, 1/4" shaft is fine, just try and match the router to be 1/4" collet

bargeloobs
10-10-2014, 08:12 PM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 9, 2014, 20:28
No idea how much having a kid costs so trying to put as much away as possible

Naa they're not that much, just be prepared to fork out continuously in ever increasing amounts for (at least) the next 18 years of your life...

AJ
11-10-2014, 12:28 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from bargeloobs on October 10, 2014, 05:12

/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 9, 2014, 20:28
No idea how much having a kid costs so trying to put as much away as possible

Naa they're not that much, just be prepared to fork out continuously in ever increasing amounts for (at least) the next 18 years of your life...

Only 18 years... I still have the kids hands in my pockets at various times still... and the youngest is 32, the oldest is 37.. BEWARNED...it never ends lol bless their cotton socks... 8O

ponch
11-10-2014, 12:31 AM
Looks like that fancy sm neck setup jig is at least 1000 years of then haha

ponch
11-10-2014, 02:45 AM
After having a look at suitable drill press' I can't seem to stretch the budget that far for the next while. Some people have said they use drill guides to good result. What do you guys think?

dingobass
11-10-2014, 04:37 AM
Drill guides are good :)

Grab a chunk of hardwood or steel (for that matter even aluminium square stock will work), you can use your baby drill press to bore the holes and then away ya go!

dingobass
11-10-2014, 04:41 AM
To be honest, the fancy pants SM neck set up jig is a waste of time and money....
Pretty sure the Gavmiester has one so he will be able to tell you first hand.

stan
11-10-2014, 04:41 AM
with the 1 1/2 inch bit - that can be a lot of torque and a fair load on the router - you would need a pretty powerful one, underpower it and you risk major tear out...

you are better off making more passes with a shorter bit - cleaner cut and less effort for the router. 1/2 to 3/4 would be plenty. the freshly routed edge becomes the edge for the bit's bearing as the route gets deeper.


let it wind down before you lift it clear of the pattern, or you risk damage...


good luck

ponch
11-10-2014, 04:48 AM
Holy shit db I never even thought of that. By rights I should be able to knock up a guide with the 6 holes matching the bridge. You sir are a genius! Wouldn't have got the neck jig anyway, but it looks rad! Almost like a surgeon's table.

ponch
11-10-2014, 04:50 AM
Thanks for the heads up Stan. The router I got is 1500 watts, 1/2 inch but came with a reducer. Will take your advice and err on the side of caution. Cheers.

Gavin1393
11-10-2014, 06:11 AM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on October 10, 2014, 13:41
To be honest, the fancy pants SM neck set up jig is a waste of time and money....
Pretty sure the Gavmiester has one so he will be able to tell you first hand.

Mine's for sale if you are interested! :) In brand new condition. Only ever used twice... ;)

ponch
11-10-2014, 06:42 AM
Haha I guess if you were full time teching it'd come in handy. For my one build every few months, not so much.

maxaxe
11-10-2014, 06:56 AM
Personally, I'd never sell any of my little creations even if anyone wanted them . . . although, Madame Toussuad's has expressed an interest :P

dingobass
11-10-2014, 09:45 AM
I looked into the neck set up jig and came to the conclusion that by the time i got the neck in it and set it up i could have the job 3/4 finished.....
Stewmac do sell some great tools but IMHO a lot of thier tools are over priced toys.....

ponch
11-10-2014, 10:35 AM
Totally agree. In my very early steps of luthierdom, basically routing a solid body guitar, the only thing I think Would be a good investment is the pickup template pack. And the notched straight edge but I plan on doing extended range guitars so I don't want to have to buy one for a Gibson scale, fender scale, another for 27" and for 30". Could just make my own in a steel rule like one of the guys did here.

bargeloobs
11-10-2014, 10:47 AM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 10, 2014, 19:35
I think Would be a good investment is the pickup template pack.

Mate... I wouldn't even bother wasting your money with SM doing that, give this dude (pablopepper) a holla and he'll make you up any router template you can think of at a fraction of the cost.

ponch
11-10-2014, 10:54 AM
Thanks mate. Better Yet I should probably learn to make them myself and stop being so Damn lazy haha.

bargeloobs
11-10-2014, 11:12 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from andrew on October 10, 2014, 19:54
Thanks mate. Better Yet I should probably learn to make them myself and stop being so Damn lazy haha.

Orr that:P
I had a go at making a humbucker template, f@*ked it right up and gave up in the end, it's soooo much easier to have someone precision laser cut them for you but if you wanted to do your own the easiest way would be out of marine ply I reckon, and like Wokka mentioned, make them nice and big so you're able to clamp them easily to the body without the clamps getting in the way of the router.

ponch
13-10-2014, 02:56 AM
Sorry to bring this up again, but before I buy the bits I just wanted to run the list by you guys. A 3.2 mm roundover bit, a 1/2" diameter inch long for the cavities routs and a 3/4" diameter 1 1/4" length for body edge routs. Cheers.

dingobass
13-10-2014, 09:15 AM
First one yes, second one I would go for a 1/2 x 1/2 long and the third one is fine :)

ponch
13-10-2014, 02:32 PM
Thanks again db. Ended up with the 2 you said were the go, a half inch diamater by 3/8" length and a 3/4" x 1".

dingobass
14-10-2014, 03:33 AM
Oh... One i forgot is a 1/4 for doing the corners of your pup rout outs.. Sorry :/

ponch
14-10-2014, 03:42 AM
No worries mate. At this stage I'm only doing Tele bodies anyway so the pup routes will be under the wood hiders. Will the half inch still be ok? When I start doing routes for humbuckers ill for sure get for 1/4" as well as some new bits. The ones I got are from mcjing tools, carbide tipped but a bit cheaper then carbitec. I'll probably stuff them up not knowing what I'm doing but when I start doing proper bodies I'll get some smashing bits.