Testing grounding without strings

[TheDangerMan]

Hey guys,

So im doing my Tele build at the moment and I cant seem to get any love in the grounding department. I have followed the diagram to the t (this isnt a PBG kit, but im using toneriders so the diagram is accurate) however when I plug the loaded body in (both pickups installed and connected with wiring to the selector and pots) I get the whole 'grounding buzz' when I touch the bridge and control plate.
Now, my question is, do I have to have strings on to truly know if I have grounded the body properly? Or should the guitar be properly grounded without strings?

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[dingobass]

1. check that you have the output jack wired the right way round...
2. check that you have the hot wires from the pups connected to the same lugs on both pots..
3. make sure the pots are all grounded
4. check the earth wire to bridge is actually making proper contact
5. swear at it really loudly, have a few soothing ales, rip out all the wiring and start again :P

[lawry]

Yep. What DB says pretty well sums up all the possibilities. And no, you don't have to have the strings on. They pick up their grounding from the bridge.

[Gavin1393]

Reckon it's the dreaded hot-wire to ground problem......have I mentioned before my gizmo to immediately check this fault.... :p

[TheDangerMan]

Arghh!
Well... This is what im working with.
Yeah, im a solder rookie and yeah it looks horrible, but aside from this... Am I doing something wrong here?
Wrong type of wiring perhaps?

Im about half an hour away from doing a full re-wiring!

http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/czp4g-Plate.png

[WeirdBits]

Need a better view of the switch wiring, and the reflections on the control plate make it a bit confusing. You can remove the ground wire linking the backs of the two pots as the control plate itself will act as the link (having multiple paths to ground can cause problems), and run the ground wire from the jack to the back of the volume pot (rather than the tone) so everything connects to a single ground point.

Is this (http://www.tonerider.com/files/tele_wiring.pdf) the diagram you're using?

[TheDangerMan]

Hey Scott,

Here is my control plate.
I understand the solders are a bit messy so its likely ill take them all out, get some new wire and start it all again.. However, id be interested to know if there is an obvious error im missing here!

Cheers,
Cam
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/84387-Plate.png

[WeirdBits]

From what I can see the layout looks ok. Just check that you don't have any stray single strands of wire or solder dags shorting between pot lugs or between a lug and the control plate. That sort of thing can cause noise issues. You could even take the components off the control plate and see if you still get the buzzing.

[dingobass]

Weirdy has probably nailed it with the earth wires between the pots.
You dont need them! and these could very well be the source of the annoying buzz as they can set up an electrical feed back type thingymabobdoovalaccky (highly technical term for buzz and hum).

[TheDangerMan]

Hmmm
Ive de-soldered (if thats a word) the tone to volume pot but still the buzzing persists!

Tricky little devil!
If all else fails, I may just go down to Altronics and grab me some more insulated wiring and start again!
It only took me about 2 hours to do last time so I guess itll be nice and quick this time round :P

[WeirdBits]

Does the buzzing occur in all switch positions and volume/tone settings? Before anything else, just give each wire/join a little prod/jiggle to make sure there isn't a dry/bad solder join somewhere. If that doesn't find the problem, then it's time to divide and conquer...

If you want to do a quick test, disconnect the grey switch wire on the volume pot and also the output wire from the jack on the middle lug of the volume pot, and then temporarily join those wires together. That will remove both the volume and tone pots from the circuit and have the switch going straight to output (assuming you still have the components on the control plate). If it no longer buzzes then you'll know it's one of the pots causing the problem, most likely something shorting to ground or possibly a cooked component from overheating while soldering.

[wokkaboy]

Danger, its hard to see if the switch is wired the same as the tonerider diagram link that Weirdy posted. Double check that. If you have removed the earth wire from tone to volume pot then move the earth wire coming from the output jack - from the tone pot to the volume pot as Weirdy suggest have a common earth point.
Once you have done this remove the components from the plate to see if the buzz is still there.
Check the lugs don't have a stray wire touching the neighbouring lug. As DB suggested double check the output jack hot tip and earth wires are correct.
Thats about all I can suggest.
Another factor when you install all this into the cavity and if its copper shielded make sure the bottom of the switch doesn't earth on the shielding.

[TheDangerMan]

Yeah all positions it buzzes. Its not as loud as I would have expected a grounding issue to make .. But its still there
Im out at the moment so ill try some of these things you guys have mentioned and let you know how I go!

Cheers
Danger

[TheDangerMan]

Hmmm so I tried that trick to check if it was the Vol and Tone pots - Still buzzed
Sooo I've taken off all the solder work from the selector switch to start again.
Can I used wire that isnt insulated for these tiny solders? Or is there a trick to getting them so close together? Think I bodged it last time is all

[dingobass]

You can use bare wire on the switch, which leads me to the question what type of wire are you using?
I find it best to use soldered wire, such as the vintage push back stuff PBG supplies.

I have found that non soldered wire can cause problems with feed back etc.

[TheDangerMan]

Ah right.
Yeah im just using some white insulated stuff from Altronics.

I might give the PBG wire a try and see if I get any love from that stuff.

[Gavin1393]

...also check that switch...
very often (as Scott suggested earlier) by overheating a switch it can stuff up the switch. That you seem to be going round in circles at the moment suggests that there is something unusual happening here. Only thing is, when resoldering these 'import' switches, it really isn't unusual for them to become damaged and lead to the kind of issues you seem to be experiencing.
Also a close up of the switch and wiring might assist.

And a tip for all those out there learning to solder on pots casing, your best bet is to heat the casing with the solder and then apply the wiring and solder to the case. Saves many wasted attempts and several centimeters of solder.

[lawry]

/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on June 18, 2014, 18:05

I have found that non soldered wire can cause problems with feed back etc.

Hmm. Not sure that the laws of physics will be on your side there, DB. A good wet, flowed joint is all you need.
And as Scotty (Star Trek) would say "ye canna change the laws of physics" 8-)

[TheDangerMan]

Cheers for the help guys.

Now the grounding hum stopped when I turn the volume all the way down... Not sure whether this is of note or not, but before I go and order a new switch I thought it worth mentioning!

Here are two pics of the switch with all the wires disconnected.
Excuse the bad soldering in the peripherals!
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/0yt05-Switch-close-up.jpg
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/59qjs-switch-close-up-2.jpg

[lawry]

OK, so it goes when you turn the volume down. That makes sense because you're basically grounding the output. But if it hums when you turn it up then it has to be coming from the pickup side. Do you have a multimeter? If so, disconnect the pickups and check for continuity through them. That is, connect the meter (on ohms) to the wires coming out of the pickup. You should be measuring anywhere from around 5000-8000 ohms. (I have no idea what The PBG pup specs are). It seems to me like you have a floating input going to the pots.

Keen to hear your thoughts too Weirdy.

[WeirdBits]

I never listen to my thoughts Lawry, they only lead me astray.

Without a multimeter I'd probably leave the switch out of the equation for the moment, and instead just connect *one* pickup hot (white or yellow) directly to the outer lug of the volume pot. Check for buzz and then repeat with the other pickup hot. You said the buzz was there without the pots in the circuit, right? So we now need to work out if it's a specific pickup or the switch causing the issue.

[lawry]

/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from WeirdBits on June 19, 2014, 17:53
I never listen to my thoughts Lawry, they only lead me astray.


LOL. When they do lead you, can I come too?

[TheDangerMan]

Hey guys,

Sorry about the delay in replying. Have had a massive week/weekend with my end of sem exams so the build had to take a back seat.
Now I removed the two hot wires from the switch and tested them on the volume pot and the grounding issue is there... On both of them.
Not too sure where to go to next, any ideas?

[lawry]

What happens if you solder the output jack directly to the pickups?

[TheDangerMan]

Hey Lawry,

I still get the grounding buzz from both pickups. The bridge pickup makes a ticking noise, but both still have the grounding buzz present.
Perhaps it is an issue with the grounding of the pickups themselves? I know with my TL-1 kit, the grounding wire connecting the pickup to the baseplate had come loose and had to be re-soldered. Maybe this might be a solution?

[WeirdBits]

I doubt your Toneriders would have faulty connections, especially on both of them. So, with just the pickup hot and ground connected to the output jack, and nothing else in the circuit (no pots, control plate, bridge ground wire, nothing) you still get a buzzing?

What electrical equipment do you have in the room with you? Fluoro lights, mobile phones, computers etc? Or, could you possibly have a bad cable connecting to your amp?

[TheDangerMan]

Yeah thats right. Still get buzzing with just the pickups and output jack.

Usually Fluoro lights and a mobile phone. Ill try a new cable, amp and in a room with no electrical interference and see whether that yields a result

Cheers guys

[lawry]

OK. I'm with Scott. I'd be really surprised if the Toneriders are dodgy. So if you're still getting buzz/hum with pups going straight to the jack then your options are reduced to...
Faulty guitar cable or jack, faulty amp, electromagnetically noisy environment or poltergeist.
Hopefully it's the latter. At least you can call in an exorcist.
Do you have access to another amp and cable to try? Also try your setup in an electrically quieter environment (run an extension lead outside) and see how that goes.
You're working at bare-bones level currently and it's weird that your having problems with the setup as it is.
Scott... What else could be going on here d'y reckon? I can't think of many other possibilities. It'd be a lot easier if I could nip round!