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Gavin1393
06-12-2013, 12:08 PM
The Naughty Corner was set up by DB to cause those of us using profanities on the forum time to think about what we did, to reflect and become remorseful over our actions.
So words such as True-Oil, Nitrocellulous, The Green B-Store, etc. have become obsolete on PBG. Well I'm off to the naughty corner for a beer.

...and I know Wokka and AJ are under there somewhere...I can hear them breathing!
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/t7sp4-naughty-corner.gif

stan
06-12-2013, 06:19 PM
Mmmm Pest would think that was teenage heaven

keloooe
06-12-2013, 10:04 PM
Nah, my cuppa tea is 5 tonne of exotic woods and massive machinery muahahahahahahahahah!!!

wokkaboy
07-12-2013, 03:50 AM
Hi Gav, nice pic of the naughty corner, its about that messy but with empty beer bottles and pizza boxes.
Must keep DB busy managing all us in the naughty corner. I think we are due for a new PC upgrade, when was the last PC you saw with a CRT screen ?

AJ
07-12-2013, 07:40 AM
Burp!..who's making a noise?

Gavin1393
07-12-2013, 09:25 AM
Geez, AJ, did you have extra garlic and pepperoni on that pizza!????

AJ
07-12-2013, 11:17 AM
who's turn for the booze run? lol

Brendan
16-12-2013, 01:35 PM
Hey - do you guys mind cleaning up a bit? I might be spending some time here... I'm all for the pizza and stuff, but sheesh... :)...

wokkaboy
01-02-2014, 06:05 AM
Hey DB, any news on a wifi connection for the naughty room ? We're working in 3rd world conditions mate.
@ Brendan I'll do some cleaning up if someone will go buy the next slab ?

Gavin1393
01-02-2014, 06:51 AM
Did someone mention beer?
Here's your NCR oil back Brenden....Wokka, please pass the pizza this way. Did AJ go for the beer run or is he somewhere under the pizza boxes asleep again?

AJ
01-02-2014, 11:51 PM
beers replenished and on ice again. Jeez , hope that home delivery service lifts it game from 3 times a week...for pizza!

Brendan
02-02-2014, 01:10 AM
Let's just hope Lawry doesn't bring in any of that water... Anyone got a brick saw - may need to knock down another wall.

jarrod
13-02-2014, 06:07 AM
Got room for a painter guy's , I bring'th beer and KFC and yes but shhhhh you can hotspot off my phone ....

wokkaboy
13-02-2014, 06:38 AM
sure Jarrod you are welcome to join the naughty room, we can learn first hand your painting techniques - won't need a video then !

jarrod
11-04-2014, 10:14 PM
Dam im here again. Pint please Wokka.

wokkaboy
11-04-2014, 11:35 PM
will do Jarrod, we're stocked up nicely now in the naughty room !

Brendan
11-04-2014, 11:54 PM
Who bought the Coopers Green? No one let DB know - he'll be back any minute now.

jarrod
12-04-2014, 09:36 AM
Mmmmm maybe we could get shorter sentences if brew our own and call it Dingo beer.

lawry
12-04-2014, 10:01 AM
I can bring a couple of spares...
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/i6scp-image.jpg

adam
12-04-2014, 10:06 AM
I don't know how I got here, but here I am.

lawry
12-04-2014, 10:25 AM
Can I get you a drink, Ads?

jarrod
12-04-2014, 10:46 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from adam on April 11, 2014, 19:06
I don't know how I got here, but here I am.


Well I never thought it!!!!
even the Boss gets in trouble lol.....
Wokka pint for Adam too please. ;)

dingobass
12-04-2014, 11:01 AM
Any American Honey in stock Guys? If so, I am off to the Big Green Shed to buy me a fourty four gallon drum of t oil ;)

AJ
12-04-2014, 11:38 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on April 11, 2014, 20:01
Any American Honey in stock Guys? If so, I am off to the Big Green Shed to buy me a fourty four gallon drum of t oil ;)

are you trying to get Gav drunk on the stuff? 8-) :D :D

AJ
12-04-2014, 12:21 PM
Move over guys, I'm back in the pen...
The wife and myself got a "background cameo appearance" on Better homes and gardens tonight, in the challenge scene.. oops, sprung in the big green store and on film now.. Sorry Phil.. I'm off to the naughty corner at pit bulls ...again.. :D

Gavin1393
12-04-2014, 12:37 PM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from adam on April 11, 2014, 19:06
I don't know how I got here, but here I am.

...most don't really know how they left the naughty room since we got "little creatures" tapped in!

Gavin1393
12-04-2014, 12:39 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on April 11, 2014, 20:01
I am off to the Big Green Shed to buy me a fourty four gallon drum of t oil ;)

Careful DB, that'll get you a life sentence although I'm not sure whose left to pass judgement!!

dingobass
12-04-2014, 12:40 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from AJ on April 11, 2014, 21:21
Move over guys, I'm back in the pen...
The wife and myself got a "background cameo appearance" on Better homes and gardens tonight, in the challenge scene.. oops, sprung in the big green store and on film now.. Sorry Phil.. I'm off to the naughty corner at pit bulls ...again.. :D


Bahahahahahaha!
Now thats what I call busted :)

Gavin1393
12-04-2014, 01:56 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from AJ on April 11, 2014, 21:21
Move over guys, I'm back in the pen...
The wife and myself got a "background cameo appearance" on Better homes and gardens tonight, in the challenge scene.. oops, sprung in the big green store and on film now.. Sorry Phil.. I'm off to the naughty corner at pit bulls ...again.. :D

When they show the reruns, does it count and put AJ back in the naughty corner each time?

lawry
12-04-2014, 09:09 PM
Sounds like it could turn into Groundhog Day if that happens, AJ.

jarrod
12-04-2014, 10:28 PM
Cant even remember why i was sent here.

DanMade
14-04-2014, 06:53 AM
With the work that's been going on in the Naughty room lately Jarrod, you may not want to ever leave.

wokkaboy
14-04-2014, 11:47 PM
yer the naughty corner is getting quite a luxury, new machinery, beer on tap and DB is talking about putting wifi on since he bought a 44 gallon drum of tru oil, so there's really no reason to leave !
I'm not getting much axe work done as I'm continually pouring pints for the new attendees !
@ AJ --> is it possible to get your cameo video uploaded to youtube and post the link ?

Gavin1393
15-04-2014, 12:55 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on April 14, 2014, 08:47
@ AJ --> is it possible to get your cameo video uploaded to youtube and post the link ?

Yeah, good move Wokka. Since AJ is the designated Pizza organiser Chef (promoted today), we need to have that Youtube video 'on-tap' should he ever try to leave (Checking out anytime to get ingredients and beer is tolerated of course).

Reason for Aj's promotion....Look what just arrived. DB has already removed anything that was quarter sawn from the pile of wood that was delivered so everyone's a winner!
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/owrr2-Nectre-Pizza-Oven.jpg

wokkaboy
15-04-2014, 02:21 AM
looks good Gav but we need a bigger pizza oven. I've built one with Wayne so we'll order a pizza oven kit and build that next to the naughty room. Suppose now we got the beer on tap AJ has been promoted to pizza chef now !

jarrod
15-04-2014, 03:46 AM
Wow Pizza, Go get some work done Wokks and I'll pour pints for awhile (one for you and two for me). DB get your oily hands off my nicely painted pint please

wokkaboy
15-04-2014, 03:52 AM
sounds good Jarrod, might suggest to DB that we employ someone to cook pizza and pour pints so we have more time to build axes, and will have 44 gallons of tru oil on tap as well !

stan
16-05-2014, 03:55 AM
looks like the top shelf needs restocking too...

jarrod
16-05-2014, 06:51 AM
DB you heard Stan..... stock the top shelf

wokkaboy
16-05-2014, 07:03 AM
@ Stan and Jarrod, don't think its DB's job to supply and fill the top shelf (assume you mean spirits !), he's just the warden that keeps us in line !

stan
16-05-2014, 10:41 AM
I've ordered fresh supplies of spirits, unlike Gav from Fires Creek, you can only drink so much Tru Oil

wokkaboy
20-05-2014, 02:39 AM
good move Stan, what are we talking whiskeys or bourbons you stocked up on?

yer Gav T seems to drink tru oil in pint glasses

bargeloobs
29-05-2014, 04:32 AM
cont from...http://www.pitbullguitars.com/community/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=1155.9


Hey Bargeloobs, First things first...

You mentioned 'Nitro' (as I have just done) so we will have to continue our discussion in the Naughty Room where beer is on tap and Pizza's in the oven.

For your and anyone else who thinks we dis Nitro, we don't really. We just aren't that excited about the tone killing properties of the product. It certainly looks great. So what follows is not a defence of our view but more of an explanation of it. We recognise that there are other who disagree with our view.

DB and I and a number of others on the forum are TONE-focussed. the history of guitar finishes is an interesting one. Initially the Fenders and Gibsons of the world were quite happy applying a finish (possibly reminiscent of Wudtone / Dingotone) because they had less of a demand for the product than would be experienced shortly after. They had time to allow their paint to sure properly.

But the tone of these guitars (many of which are classics today) was terrific, but there came a point where to increase production and to get the end product to the market they had to come up with something that dried and cured faster, hence the introduction of Nitro (don't worry - Nitro is an allowable word in the Naughty Room.) This meant the end product was finished faster and looked great too. Unfortunately, in the view of many TONE was compromised. There is a debate around this - it depends on your ear and what you are used to and what you know is possible.

Perhaps by way of illustration consider a great voice singing naturally versus putting a fish bowl over your head and singing.... Particularly relevant with acoustic guitars where the difference is so audible that Taylor's new 800 series is now painted with an extremely thin but durable UV product. The Taylors now sound sensational whereas to my ears even their top of the range guitars used to go "Thud" when you played them rather than 'sparkle'.

Again the debate with electrics is interesting because the view held is that the sound only comes from the pickups. But what are the pickup picking up? The strings. What influences the tone, sustain and vibration of the strings? The nut and the bridge, and these are attached to the material of the guitar, be that a variety of wood, metal, oil can, cigar box, Perspex, etc. With an acoustic guitar the body is designed to be an 'air pump'. The better the vibration of the soundboard, the better the 'sound' that emanates from the guitar. This is why you will find that a soundboard of an acoustic is usually always a 'light wood' like Bunya, Sitka, Adirondack, cedar, redwood, etc. and the back and sides will be a hardwood like the rosewood family (Indian, Brazilian, Honduran, Madagascar), cocobolo, Zebrawood, Katalox, Ebony family, etc. The mahogany, maple and Koa is considered a medium wood and hence sometimes you will find the soundboard and the back and sides of the guitar will be constructed in that wood. The ability of the body to vibrate will be influenced by the choice of wood. This is true also of electrics which is why different wood tend towards different tonal properties. However, the moment you throw copious amounts of finish on to the wood, these properties are altered because the wood will not vibrate in the same way. This changes how the strings behave and ultimately what the pickups will amplify. Again all this can be altered by the sound processors, but garbage in garbage out.... to some extent.

Hence, while DB, myself and others will marvel at the beauty of a Nitro finish, we would compromise the rich deep gloss of a nitro finish for pure TONE. Wudtone certainly retains the tone of a well built and well thought out instrument but lacked the depth that is seen in a Nitro finish. Dingotone achieves both Tone and Depth of finish.

Firstly Gav, great explanation man, very interesting.
Whilst I'll admit right now I know very little about the tonal characteristics of specific timbers I fully understand where you're coming from when you talk about deadening a timber (and therefore the tone) through the use of various coatings when applied too heavily.
I think from a purists perspective you're absolutely right, I think from the average Joe's perspective it's not really an issue.
I'd be willing to bet any average (and probably many exceptional) guitarists would be hard pressed to even tell the difference in tone between two identical electric guitars with different finishes (e.g nitro vs dingotone), furthermore think of any famous guitarist of the 20th century, renown for his "tone" and you'll probably find he's either playing or has played an electric guitar that has a nitro finish.
It's like when I hear people talking about how a 96Khz recording sounds so much better than one tracked at 48Khz, it makes me laugh.
I'm not disagreeing with you but I think the effects of Nitro are negligible when talking about electric guitars and their tone, and in all reality an acrylic or poly finish would be far more detrimental to tone as they, by their very nature inherently thicker.
By all means prove me wrong...make me a believer.

kells80aus
29-05-2014, 05:42 AM
I don't think Nitro has any more to do with the guitar, than to let the wood breath.
It is the wood that makes or breaks the tone. :D

PK

stan
29-05-2014, 08:13 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on May 19, 2014, 11:39
good move Stan, what are we talking whiskeys or bourbons you stocked up on?

yer Gav T seems to drink tru oil in pint glasses

both of course!


We need to make up a whole bunch of one kit and do a tone comparison, mythbusters shoot out style, on finishes, nuts, pots, cheap and expensive pickups with same resistance etc....

bargeloobs
02-06-2014, 07:54 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from kells80aus on May 28, 2014, 14:42

I don't think Nitro has any more to do with the guitar, than to let the wood breath.
It is the wood that makes or breaks the tone. :D

PK

I'd tend to agree with you on that one PK.

jarrod
03-06-2014, 12:57 AM
Doing my home work alot on this beleive me, modern acrylic clears applied thin enough have no more effect on tone then a nitro finish. As quoted modern arcrylics dry very hard thus causing great resinance of there own. Natural wood will lose a percentage of quality regardless of what finish is applied. Dont get wrong your best tone qualities will always come from the least amount of finnish possible. Tru oil and any gloss /semi gloss finnish will have an affect. So the bottom line is regardless of your choice of finish keep it as thin as possible for your best results. As stated above , Steve via/ the edge / slash / joe satriarni / Richi sambora /nuno Betencourt and the list goes on.....are all known for there tone all be it through wood and electronics and nitro / acrylic finishes. Remember acrylic has more or less the same properties as nitro minus the solvents. It is classed as the modern nitro wothout the yellowing over time. These are not my words but words of many experts around the world. So weather your choice be nitro/ acrylic or dingo tone, enjoy how your instrument looks. And remember you will be able to use dingo tone colours for your grain under your acrylic clear. My personal choice will be to do that due to Dingo's colours compared to any other dyes on the market and of cause its a natural product made right here in Aus

dingobass
06-06-2014, 10:49 PM
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.

If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things :)

wokkaboy
07-06-2014, 01:58 AM
so basically like your latest bass DB ?
it did sound awesome what a beast of a bass. Next time we leave I'll get Popeye to distract you and I'll pop in in the car haha

bargeloobs
07-06-2014, 07:48 PM
/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on June 6, 2014, 07:49
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.

If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things :)

"ni ni" I laffed!
So essentially you've said it yourself DB "there is a slight tradeoff with tone", so in fact using the term "tone killer" is (I think you'll agree) a bit extreme.
I think they're all valid points too but we must look at "tone" objectively and not get hung up on certain products just because we prefer them over others, I reckon if something sounds good then....it probably is (and vice versa).
Hmmm.... a string through, neck through Firebird...

stan
07-06-2014, 10:03 PM
wouldnt the ultimate be not to put a finish on a guitar at all? Not good for longevity , but killer for tone...

Gavin1393
07-06-2014, 10:30 PM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from bargeloobs on June 7, 2014, 04:48

/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on June 6, 2014, 07:49
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.

If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things :)

"ni ni" I laffed!
So essentially you've said it yourself DB "there is a slight tradeoff with tone", so in fact using the term "tone killer" is (I think you'll agree) a bit extreme.
I think they're all valid points too but we must look at "tone" objectively and not get hung up on certain products just because we prefer them over others, I reckon if something sounds good then....it probably is (and vice versa).
Hmmm.... a string through, neck through Firebird...

In my defence, if you re-read my comment I didn't say nitro was a 'tone killer' but referred to 'tone killing properties'. Anything that reduces the potential tone of an instrument lessens the quality of the sound of the guitar. As i also said, this is a hotly debated subject. I love the story told by Erwin Somogyi whose acoustic guitars sell for around $35,000 a guitar.

A customer brought in an average guitar to ask him to repair it. The guitar was no longer playing in tune and needed to be fixed. Erwin took a look at the guitar and there was nothing to suggest any damage that would suddenly lead to the guitar playing out of tune. The customer was insistent that for several years there was no issue with the tuning, it had to be something that had changed within the guitar.

Erwin being the pro that he is knew better, he explained to the client that what had in fact changed was the client's ability to hear the correct notes up and down the fretboard. He explained that the clients guitar was never perfectly in tune and that the client was now at a level where a far superior guitar was needed. How did Erwin discover this, he simply handed the customer some of his hand built guitars and of course these were spot on, he then gave the customer some of his other client guitars that he was doing basic repair work to and these guitars were as out of tune as the customers own guitar.

I love this story because i know in my own experience how my ears learned to hear what I believe is sound quality. Working in a recording studio for several years can fine tune you auditory abilities or perhaps make you deaf(?). Maybe DB and I are pedantic about tone. We are extremely hard on ourselves when we build because we want to build an instrument that we will be proud to put our names to, hence our relentless quest! But tone and sound is a very personal choice and there really is no right or wrong answer when saying that one likes a particular tone. This is also why we share what we have learned so freely on the forum.
Debate is always welcome, this is how we learn too.

The ultimate would indeed be not to put finish on a guitar and in fact I always dread the loss of tone that might occur with my acoustic builds. But, especially with acoustics they need protection and to reduce the expansion and contraction of the wood with humidity which can raise and lower the bridge and hence the string height over the fretboard. So there has to be a compromise.

As DB said, there is a trade-off between tone, protection and finish required to achieve both.

jarrod
08-06-2014, 03:39 PM
Ah Gav we know your not wrong but hey I just like stuff that's shiney.
Also to put a point out there that piano's where once shellac and not painted like they are now.
How mass production changes things hey !

bargeloobs
08-06-2014, 10:00 PM
I'm hearin' ya Gav, if I was puttin' out instruments of your blokes quality and craftsmanship I'd be fairly pedantic about it too.

kells80aus
26-07-2014, 07:02 AM
Now what was the story about Jambuck heaters (approx. $100 at the Big Green Store) :D

PK

Ok Quick look online, someone got ripped off.Jumbuck 2000W Outdoor Electric Heater $69

Just had a blonde moment. If I put my patio heater in their I could achieve an instant cure. WOOOOF..

wokkaboy
26-07-2014, 07:21 AM
PK don't use a heater to cure the clear coats, its an infra red heater, I had a look on the big green shed website and couldn't see it so you will have to check with your local store.
Think the brand is Jumbuck, it has 2 or 3 heater tubes in it, looks similar to the outdoor one

kells80aus
26-07-2014, 07:25 AM
Tks Wokka. the prob isn't the curing it's the warming.

PK

kells80aus
26-07-2014, 07:27 AM
I might head down to 'United Tools' in Hopeless Crossing and see what they have to offer. they had some electric units in their last week.

PK

barrylicious
26-07-2014, 11:20 PM
How bout a hybrid brass resonator/ electric build for tone. Use a mix of pickups and bug mikes.
Im new to guiitar building so I'm not sure what's possible and plausible. But I've played on an old resonater acoustic and loved the tone that came from it, but I'd still like the versatility of an electric (for lead riffs) without swapping guitars.

jarrod
10-08-2014, 11:41 AM
The naughty room AGM went well with DB lifting the ban for the day. Wokks served the pints and Gav may just be convinced to buy a CNC. Beer flowed and I got to show off a couple off my favourite girls. Really good to meet Gav Wokks and Wayne and ofcause always good to see DB. Next one at Adams for pitbull party

Gavin1393
11-08-2014, 10:09 AM
Looking forward to Ad's bash (PBG's 2nd anniversary). Excellent afternoon at Jarrod's mancave, that CNC and Jarrod's skills driving it are something to see. Reckon I'd need a serious CAD course under my belt to do a CNC some justice.

kells80aus
11-08-2014, 09:13 PM
Nah. You just buy the CNC and then buy all the G-code off Jarrod. easy :)

PK

jarrod
12-08-2014, 12:20 AM
[quote]/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from kells80aus on August 11, 2014, 06:13
Nah. You just buy the CNC and then buy all the G-code off Jarrod. easy :)

here is my girl pk. A photo as you requested

http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/dl8d3-1407719973739.jpg

wokkaboy
12-08-2014, 12:57 AM
thanks for showing us your man cave Jarrod. Very impressed at the CNC machine and the templates you cut look awesome. We discussed all the important things and the list of things DB doesn't like is a mile long !

pablopepper
12-08-2014, 01:06 AM
/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on August 11, 2014, 09:57
the list of things DB doesn't like is a mile long !

That's how come everybody else here is in the naughty room!

wokkaboy
12-08-2014, 04:28 AM
haha good point Pablo, its a pretty packed naughty room alright, might need to convert a warehouse to fit everyone in !

kells80aus
12-08-2014, 07:43 AM
Fabulous bit of Kit Jarrod. I think I'm in lurve.... lol

PK

dingobass
12-08-2014, 12:22 PM
Geez Woks.... that was a bit harsh... i only dislike gibsons, warlocks, icepersons..... ok... so it is a longish list :)

dingobass
12-08-2014, 12:25 PM
i should point out that is purely personal. i know peeps love em and thats ok by me.
how boring would it be if we all liked the same stuff?

wokkaboy
12-08-2014, 01:24 PM
Yer good point DB, if we all liked the same products there would be no naughty room.
How boring would that be ?

Gavin1393
12-08-2014, 01:48 PM
...and who would serve beer and Pizza if AJ and Wokka weren't permanently in the Naughty Room....

Woks, you left out of DB's list:
The big green store
Nitro
Poly
TrueOil
plastic Nuts
Brass Nuts
Tools NOT purchased from StewMac (he has them ALL)
The Telenapper (if he ever finds out who this is, he expects to find several Tele's he once owned, a baritone scratchy and some Basses.
Frets on a Fretboard
Scratch Plates
Pickguards
These are off the top of my head...... :P

wokkaboy
12-08-2014, 11:24 PM
haha yer Gav I did leave them off the DB's hate list. Think you covered most of it !
He's also not a fan of Feast Watson proof tint stains !

Fretworn
13-08-2014, 02:06 AM
I think AJ must be on the lam from the naughty room. Haven't seen him around here for a while.