Fender and Gibson, the cost is it worth it...Discuss amongst the group.

[HoneyBadgerJM]

Hey Boys this probably been discussed in days past but nice to bring up again from a Newby...Been on the Fender and Gibson websites getting finish ideas etc...and it occurred to me are they for real on the prices the charge...$1500 for an entry level Telecaster and $3000 grand for Flame Top base model Les Paul....I have seen guitars on this forum in the last 2 weeks that are being built on shoe strings.....My favorite on the Gibson site is their Custom Models, $6000 plus, one of their selling points is HAND SANDED, I mean is there any other way for a $6000 guitar....

[Dedman]

I think there is point where all you are paying for is prestige and for Americans, patriotism. For some reason the concept that nothing good can come from anywhere but the US is very common in lots of fields. Look at Harley, the Japanese make much better bikes on every level but people will pay out twice the price for a badge and swaggering rights.(And yes I've owned Harley's) I think the same applies with guitars. The Fender Mexico factory is not far from the US factory as the crow flies but for some reason they are looked down on. A factory worker is a factory worker, they have a quota of work to do whether they are in the US, Mexico, Korea or China. Custom shops are for people who can't do it themselves or want bragging rights. Personally I would prefer to pay an Aussie luthier to make me something from scratch rather than have someone sign off on something they probably had little input on from a factory..
Just my 2 cents having dealt with US manufacturers, Japanese manufacturers and Chinese manufacturers ( not in the music biz).

Edit to add: I watched a Youtube vid of Rob Chapman with his fav 10 guitars, his V had the jack socket hanging out by the wires and another axe he said the strings kept jumping out of the nut because he ran heavier strings.....Dude, you own a guitar company and can't fix something relatively basic?

[Chuck]

My favorite on the Gibson site is their Custom Models, $6000 plus, one of their selling points is HAND SANDED, I mean is there any other way for a $6000 guitar....

You could look at it another way (not that I do, just making a different point)... The issue with some of the lower end models is inconsistency, so when you go custom shop you want it to be perfect. On that basis maybe you want the guitar that's machine sanded - cos it would be perfect in terms of delivering exactly the model you were buying!

As Dedman says, you pay for the brand association - whatever your reasons for pursuing it (and we all do to varying degrees). I bought a Squier Tele a few years back when a mate of mine was working for Fender Australia. I went out to the warehouse and we opened up 10+ boxes of the model I was after. He always said that one in ten was as good as anything produced in the custom shop, you just had to find it. I know the one I've got is a cracker, but I'm guilty as charged in that thinking it would look better with a Fender logo!

It's certainly an interesting discussion with a lot of opinions! Me? I do like brands, but I do think you can go overboard on things like $6000 custom shop guitars from G or F where a big chunk of the money is just going to the "brand". For that kind of money I'd be going to a luthier like Piers Crocker or similar.

[wazkelly]

I have played many genuine Strats and mostly unimpressed for the prices being asked hence why I bought mainly copies, particularly in the 70's & 80's when the Japs could copy better than the originals.

My eldest son has a 2008 White Gibson Explorer with ebony Fret Board and he had to try out every one in the shop before deciding upon that one as being the best example on offer. Must admit for the $1,600 bucks he stole it for, that was money well spent as it is a ripper. Only bummer is the nitro finish is easily damaged.

Myself, always longed for a genuine Gibbo but left underwhelmed by most I have played. Only American brand I would buy more of is Rickenbacker (on my 2nd one now) as they are unique and nobody has come up with a copy anywhere near as good in both sound or feel.

Edit: Should also add that one of the eldest son's mates has a very expensive PRS that never gets out of it's case as he is too afraid to damage it whilst playing??? What's the point of having such an expensive axe if it never gets played? This ties back in with theme of this thread in that why would you spend more than $5k on any guitar? Different story if you win Lotto and have plenty of coin to splash around but even then most would just become part of a collection or for bragging rights.

[Andy40]

I agree with you guys, but I'd spend $6,000 on guitar kits.

Some argue that you pay for the re-sale value of the big brands.

[andrewdosborne]

For me personally it comes down to how the guitar/bass feels and sounds. I've preferred Squires over more expensive Fender models and visa versa (same on the G side)

And I now have kit guitars in the mix some of which I prefer to play over my branded commercial purchases. My recent JBA would stand up against any MIA J bass.

I was fortunate enough to play a custom shop 50s strat last week in a jam session. It really was a thing of beauty. But would I pay the coin for it..... Probably not.

**Edit - just checked my fav commercial guitar - Epi Casino from early 90's (Korean). QC on the new ones are from China are also very high. Reasonable cost and not USA Gibbo prices.

http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Ele...lu-Casino.aspx


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[DrNomis_44]

I own a Gibson USA Les Paul Studio that has a Vintage Sunburst finish and no body/neck binding, I bought it slightly shop-damaged for Au$2000.00, it was normally retailing for Au$2599.00, I have also owned a Fender Mexican Standard Stratocaster which I remember paying Au$999.00 for, to be honest I was a bit underwhelmed by the quality, I had a lot of trouble keeping the guitar in tune and the stock tuners suffered from varying degrees of backlash when brand new, I may consider buying a new Fender Mexican strat again one day if I can find a better example, a lot of the times, you do end up paying more for these USA-made instruments because they attract import-duties, and the shops that sell them here in Australia put a large mark-up on them to get a better profit-margin, when you pay lots of money for a recently-manufactured genuine standard USA Gibson Les Paul most of the money you pay seems like it goes into all the binding on the guitar, I have read stories on the internet where some Gibson guitars had to be returned to the manufacturer to correct manufacturing defects with the nuts.

[dave.king1]

I've been playing since the mid 1960s and have owned instruments that people would all but die for today.
59 Tele, L series PBass, 64 VI Bass, 61 Les Paul SG plus played some absolute 3rd world horrors from the same era.

Today you cannot buy a guitar that is not playable out of the box unless it come from Aldi or JB HiFi, Squiers, Epis, LTD etc are all generally pretty good quality instruments in fact the Squier Classic Vibe series are very good.

By comparison I played a Telecaster FMT HH in Hawaii this year and it wasn't fit to be on a BBQ it was an absolute dog with a big ticket on it, my PBs and other builds are superior and much more playable

[HoneyBadgerJM]

I agree with you guys, but I'd spend $6,000 on guitar kits.

Some argue that you pay for the re-sale value of the big brands.

There is a good point $6000 would get you All the tools required to build a scratch built 59 Les Paul from Stew Mac, that includes Pick up winder, AAAA Flame top maple cap, body etc, etc...I personally don't think I see myself ever buying a F of G, seen too many Factory Vids, with respect to the workers I dont think the Fender Factory workers say, when ask what they do they for a living,reply 'I am a lutiher at the Fender Factory'

[fender3x]

This has been a really interesting discussion. Very thought provoking.

I have spent much more time with Fenders than Gibsons, and it seems to me they are very different. Gibson is an older brand, and feels much more like a traditional musical instrument to me. They made working musician's instruments as well as beautiful pieces of art, but it always seemed to me that they were made to play.
I've had more Fenders, and mostly the genius of them is the combination of playability, the ease of actually making/fixing them and their simplicity. Bodies don’t have “archtops.” Parts are mostly stamped and screwed on. But they will take amazing abuse and still sound and play well. Most Fenders are essentially designed to be cheap guitars to produce and maintain, yet be tough, cool and playable enough for working musicians.

So where does a guitar get its value? And where does it NOT get its value from?

One way to judge value is by what some shmuck will pay. From time to time this is why I think about selling my ’75 Precision. It’s a very good bass. Plays well. Sounds good. Made in the USA. All original with orange fur case and ashtray covers. Translucent chocolate brown finish. I paid $275 for it in 1978. When I started seeing them go for over $1700 US on ebay I stopped playing it and started thinking about selling it. It’s good. A brand new G&L LB-100 can be purchased between $1000-1300, and is better in every objective way.

By contrast, my ’85 Japanese Fender F-265C is a great little acoustic. Bound, mahogany sides, back and neck. Bound with a cutaway. Sounds good. Looks good. Plays well. I paid $500 for it new, and will never see that money again. 30 years later it sounds better than new, but no one is going to give me anything for an old Japanese acoustic fender.

If value means to you “holds it’s value” or “appreciates” then patriotism is not the only reason why someone might buy an American guitar. It’s not what I care most about, but it’s not trivial either, particularly if you want to sell or trade someday. I keep my guitars a long time, but for those that sell them, I can’t begrudge this as a criterion. That said, it’s got to be both old and cool to really hold value. You’re lucky if what comes out of the Fender custom shop holds its value. I can’t see it appreciating like the old ones do. Laklands, or Sadowskys or PRS’s might, but it’s a crapshoot even though they’re really good and USA made.

If what you want is a “player” then it’s a little different. I have come to think that there’s a point of diminishing returns. You can certainly pay too much. But to get a good player I generally think you end up paying one way or another. I have an SX Jazz bass (read that cheap-but-decent-Chinese). For $100 it plays as well as most low end Fenders and was finished better than many. Sounded like crap though. No problem! Add good pickups. While I am in there, might as well upgrade the pots and wiring. I’ve replaced the nut with bone (thanks DB!). Done some work on the frets. Will be doing some more. Sanded down the back of the neck. Better all the time, but what I saved in initial investment I am making up replacement parts and sweat equity. I think I’m over $400 and have invested lots of time—with more to come. I had better enjoy the bass, because no matter what it’s not worth a dime more than I paid for it.

Which brings me back to my favorite bass of all time. My ’94 G&L ASAT Bass. partly by CNC, but let me tell you, the precision with which it was put together is astounding. Everything lines up perfectly. The neck is pure joy to put my hands on. In fact I put my hands on it in a shop and never took them off. Came home with me that day. Pickups produce a gazillion different sounds. It’s not so valuable that I am afraid to mod it. It’s built like a tank which is great for gigging. I’d buy another one in a heartbeat, and I’d be willing to pay what they ask.

But I keep thinking about Deadman’s metaphor about the Harley, and a visit that I once made to the Warmoth Factory in Puallup WA (Washington state, not Western Australia). I still had some silly illusions about what “made in USA” meant, until I walked their factory. They guys who were shaping bodies and necks were all Thai immigrants. The owners were locals, but none of the actual workers were. What difference does it make where the Asians who build your guitar sleep at night? Don’t get me wrong, the Warmoth neck and body that I picked up that day are beautifully made. But it’s the QC, not the origin of the part or the worker that makes the biggest objective difference. That said, objectivity only gets you so far. A guitar for many of us is not just something for making art, it is art that you play. A friend who used to race for Honda told me that for a long time he was puzzled about why people bought Harley’s when the Japanese bikes were so much better and cheaper. But one day realized that he’d been missing the point. You could always customize your Harley in endless ways. Beyond that every one that leaves the factory is a custom creation. A Kawasaki is a motorcycle. A Harley is a piece of art you can ride. A new Kawasaki will eventually be worthless. A Harley can go up in value virtually forever.

I want my guitars to be playable and to sound good. On the other hand, I know that a part of why I am spending so much time on this ESB-4 project is that I also want something unique and cool with a little poetry in it. Objectivity only gets you so far ;-)