Slappin' together da IB-5 mon!

[michnet76]

Good to note thanks wazkelly.

A few other the other guitarists I play with also have basses (just cheapies as well) so I'll start taking note of the volume settings they're using on the bass amp. When I have my yammy plugged in I'm only sitting on around 2-3 on the dial and it's plenty loud as a stage monitor.

I will head to practice early tonight and plug it in for a proper test run and see how it sounds - certainly don't mind turning up the volume so long as it remains reasonably clean and noise free.

[michnet76]

Well that was fun! Always something special about playing a guitar you've built yourself

There's a few things I need to sort out still like getting the action diallrd in just right, I think a decent set of strings will help with the clangy sound I was getting when I got a little over zealous. When I eased off and played cleaned notes it sounds pretty good I think, definitely potential to dial it in. Love the low B string though, gave a nice low end presence to the mix and filled the auditorium well... I think they'll need to go around and retighten all the fixtures though, you could hear everything loose in the auditorium rattling on certain notes! I think the sound guys had the subs turned up louder than usual tonight

I had to crank the amp up to half to get the same volume out of it I normally get with the Yammy but it still sounded ok with no extra noise coming out of the amp... The lower notes (B-E) did sound a little flabby/distorted out of the bass amp but I suspect it's because its getting quite old rather than the bass itself causing it, the sound coming out of the FOH subs sounded clean.

Overall very happy with it and put a smile on my my face playing it tonight! We had a photographer come take photos for some promo stuff so I'll post a pic of the new bass in action when I see them.

[wazkelly]

Depending on your amp, and more importantly the speaker in it, that might be the part struggling with the sub sonic low notes that a 5th B string can produce.

The open B can seriously make windows rattle, almost earthquake like haha!

[Fretworn]

Session bassist Neville LeGreen once told me that the difference between a 4 string bass and a 5 string bass is you can play a 4 string through a 100w amp, but need a 800w amp for a 5 string because you need the extra headroom when playing the lower notes.

[wazkelly]

Really? I always thought that choice of a speaker had more of an impact on whether the super low Hz could be heard properly rather than how much head room an amp has. Acknowledge that more headroom should provide a cleaner signal, but only if it is being driven hard. Not sure a low D, C or B played at a modest volume would make that much difference to an amp's performance. Pretty insane having too much sound level if playing onstage anyways and best to leave the sub sonics to FOH.

[Simon Barden]

It's partly about the ear's response falling off at those very low frequencies, so the notes need to be louder to appear to be at the same volume, and partly because the speaker output is falling off as well at those low frequencies. Tuned ports can only extend the bass response so far (after which it falls iff far quicker than with a closed enclosure), and you still have to map the speaker's output curve on to the cab response curve to get the full picture. But what you ideally need to do is boost just the very low frequencies whilst the rest stay at a normal level. Which is where a 31-band graphic can come in useful.

100W to 800W is only a 9dB increase, and its the sort of power that you need to get the very low notes to be heard well without distortion, assuming that the rest of the bass frequencies are running at around 100W.

[michnet76]

G'day Simon and wazkelly...

It certainly is an interesting subject and I've found myself doing quite a bit of research on it over the past few days. I can certainly understand needing more watts to drive a speaker to generate more db's in the lower notes of the low B string, especially if driving a 15" speaker at gig volumes... Those wavelengths are getting pretty long and need a decent amount of movement to generate it at stage volumes to match the higher frequencies.

I can also understand your thought process wazkelly regarding the need for the extra wattage if you're not necessarily after the volume that a higher wattage system can produce. That raises the thought if you're increasing the watts (and in turn volume) to boost the lower frequencies then when you go to play notes higher up it's going to blast extra loud - so I'm not sure if just having more watts is the complete answer... I think what is really needed is an amp and speaker/cab design combination that has a flatter response in the lower frequencies that can cover a 5 string bass, regardless of what watts and volume you're trying to play at.

Manufacturers used to disclose the frequency response curves of their amps/speakers but I've noticed you don't see it much these days. I've been looking around to buy a suitable bass amp I can use at home to practice and can't find any detailed info on the current crop of smaller bass combos - they just advertise a Xhz - Xhz range in the specs and that's it. Usually the db drops off as it heads towards each end of it's range. I think that's what I discovered this on Monday night with the churches amp. I didn't seem to have much volume with the lower B strings yet the higher strings were quite loud. I ended up lowering the pups significantly on the treble side to try and balance it out. Last night I plugged the bass into a mixer then plugged my full range monitor headphones into it and the low B string sounded huge and full and the volume on the A/D/G strings wasn't as loud in comparison. The headphones were able to reproduce the full range of frequencies the B strings was offering up including all the subtle harmonics and overtones. I think when using an amp that can't handle the full fundamental notes of on the B string it ends up reproducing those harmonics and overtones more which could lead to the weak farty/sound.

So this leads me to think that if my headphones can pump out a solid sounding bass at hearing loss volume then a smaller decent speaker in a well designed cabinet should be able to reproduce a solid 31hz low B in all it's glory, even if it's just at practice/personal monitor volume if the amp and speaker/cabinet is designed and tuned to deal with those low end frequencies at sufficient db. It probably wouldn't handle stage volumes but that's when bigger and/or multiple speakers come into it along with all those extra watts to drive them.

I'm no speaker technician or audio engineer but that's how interpret it all based on what I've learnt over the years along with recent research.

I should also add the amp at church I was using is an ancient Ashton head with 1x15 cab which has probably seen better days. I have no idea of it's wattage but it wouldn't at all surprise me if the speaker is shot. The head is starting to have a few issues like random spikes in volume... quite frustrating as you have to continually monitor it and adjust playing intensity when it does it.

I ended up ordering a Trace Elliot Elf head and matching 1x10" cab today after reading and watching many reviews. I was initially going to just get small combo - eyed off the Fender Rumble 40, Hartke HD series or one of those tilting ampegs... Even toyed the idea off a larger combo like a 12" TC Electronics but figured it would be overkill for quiet practices at home as I don't really need the volume which would just peeve my family and neighbours off! The TE Elf is rated at 200W 4ohm/130W 8 ohm so that will probably be overkill still for home use but I figured it would be much more versatile being such a small head as I can pop it in the gig bag and use it at church and plug it into the 15" cab there and run DI out to the desk. I should be able to dial in some more consistent tones that way too.

[Simon Barden]

Headphones are much better at reproducing bass than a big loudspeaker is. My AKG712s go down to 10Hz and up to 39kHz (though probably at -10dB from the nominal level and frequency response at a the -3dB points are a better indicator of a speaker's true performance). You simply won't get that from a single 15" speaker at any volume.

[wazkelly]

I ended up ordering a Trace Elliot Elf head and matching 1x10" cab today after reading and watching many reviews. I was initially going to just get small combo - eyed off the Fender Rumble 40, Hartke HD series or one of those tilting ampegs... Even toyed the idea off a larger combo like a 12" TC Electronics but figured it would be overkill for quiet practices at home as I don't really need the volume which would just peeve my family and neighbours off! The TE Elf is rated at 200W 4ohm/130W 8 ohm so that will probably be overkill still for home use but I figured it would be much more versatile being such a small head as I can pop it in the gig bag and use it at church and plug it into the 15" cab there and run DI out to the desk. I should be able to dial in some more consistent tones that way too.

Smart choice if you prefer to experiment with different cabinets and speaker sizes.

I bought a Hartke HD75 about a year ago and very impressed. Not too loud or too quiet, has headphone out, aux input plus 7 band graphic eq, and family friendly when rehearsing at home. The Rumble and slanted Ampegs weren't as good in that price range and sounded quite dull in comparison.

[michnet76]

Headphones are much better at reproducing bass than a big loudspeaker is.

Yeah would be nice if they could but I guess physics dictate otherwise!

Smart choice if you prefer to experiment with different cabinets and speaker sizes.

Hopefully it ends up being a smart choice! I live out in the country and we don't have any music shops nearby any more so not being able to try out a heap of amps before pulling the trigger on one kinda sucks. From what I've read the TE should be a good fit - The 'Trace Elliot tone' is meant to be more mid range and punchy, typical 80's style, good for slap etc. Having the flexibility to work with different cabs will be handy and I can add another 1x10" cab down the line or get a bigger one if the need arises.

I umm'ed and ar'ed for a good week on what to get, quite a few late nights reading and watching every review I could find on everything available! The Hartke HD was on the short list along with TC Electronics combos but the flexibility of being able to use the little head in multiple locations won out! I don't really want to be lugging amps around anymore.

I only just noticed this morning on a local FB buy/swap/sell page the owner of the old local music shop that closed last year is selling some new/old stock Hartke gear:

1 x Hartke VX115 1 x 15" cab - $330
1 x Hartke AK115 1 x 15" cab - $330
1 x Hartke 410XL 4 x 10" cab - $450
1 x Hartke 4.5XL 4 x 10" cab with tweeter - $480
1 x Hartke HX410 4 x 10" cab - $850
1 x Hartke LH500 500w bass head - $470
1 x Hartke HA5500 500w bass head - $590

Would have been a bit overkill for a home practice rig though. I'm half tempted to go check out the 410XL - the specs claim a FR down to 30hz and from what I've read in reviews/forums posts so far it can handle the low end well. If I was to get it I'd probably leave it at the church and use it instead of their old 1x15 cab.

Anyway... back to the thread subject - Last night I had some spare time so thought I'd play the yammy and the IB-5 back to back to see how it stacks up, apart from the large volume difference I also noticed the pups on the IB-5 are much more sensitive to handling noise, seems to pick up every little bit of string talk, the way the fingers touch and pluck the strings. I'm finding I have to play a lot cleaner with the IB-5 compared to what I can get away with on the yammy. Granted I'm playing through full range headphones which make all those higher frequencies more pronounced whereas playing through a bass amp should clip a lot of that off. But it does make it sound like a cheap bass, even though I actually don't mind the tone they generate as they sound more open and full range in comparison to the JB set up on the yammy which seem more compressed. I'll wait till I get new strings on it and do some work on the neck tongue profile/angle at the same time so I can get a better setup with the string height. After that I'll see how it sounds and handles and if I'm happy with it I might start thinking of a pup upgrade along with better pots etc. Might even pull the frets and try to level the fretboard to make it a bit straighter between the bass and treble side. It still has that slight twist in the neck which is giving more relief on the treble side compared to the bass side - pity it isn't the other way around as it would be ideal!